AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  air crash investigation TV show          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Planes, gliders and flying in Australia View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Brian May Guest Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:18 pm    Post subject: air crash investigation TV show Hello, The recent TV show said breakdowns in communications, between flight crew, between flight crew and ATC, and between ATC contributed to this accident. I was curious: what mechanisms, if any, does ATC have to pass critical safety/emergency information on the next controller during the hand off? I got the impression that ATCO were so busy with the high workload, that each controller forgot to pass on the emergency situation (low fuel) to the next controller. I can understand though that the ATCO may not appreciate "request priority" (or whatever) to mean the same thing as "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" under such conditions, despite the criticism they received. To me, the first might mean "I am in a hurry to meet my schedule", not "we only have x minutes fuel left". Even "we are running low on fuel" could mean "we don't have as much fuel as we would like to have and soon will start using our reserves". I imagine if the pilots had squawked the emergency code it would have made a big difference. From my comfortable arm chair , it also seems a relevant point that the captain wasn't satisfied that the copilot had declared an emergency (maybe he was also listening for a "MAYDAY" keyword too), but didn't make a transmission himself (surely he should be able to say "MAYDAY" himself despite his language issues) or change the transponder. -- Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> Back to top AA Guest Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote snip Quote: I can understand though that the ATCO may not appreciate "request priority" (or whatever) to mean the same thing as "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" under such conditions, despite the criticism they received. To me, the first might mean "I am in a hurry to meet my schedule", not "we only have x minutes fuel left". Even "we are running low on fuel" could mean "we don't have as much fuel as we would like to have and soon will start using our reserves". We get regular requests for upgrade of priority. Some of the reasons given: Late for connecting flight Been flying all day and am worn out and don't want to do two holding patterns Fuel will be on minimums if I have to hold - The meaning of this varies between "I will have my reserves left" to "I've got 10 mins fuel left" etc My response to a pilot request for priority is "Are you declaring an emergency?" If you declare an emergency, you will be given appropriate priority. AA Back to top Dom Guest Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote Quote: My response to a pilot request for priority is "Are you declaring an emergency?" If you declare an emergency, you will be given appropriate priority. AA .... and if the answer is in the negative, does the pilot receive any preferential treatment at all? In other words, is there any point asking for priority without declaring an emergency? Dom Back to top AA Guest Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "Dom" <NOmoadslspam (AT) tpg (DOT) nospam.com.au> wrote Quote: "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:426ee45c$0$27011$5a62ac22 (AT) per-qv1-newsreader-01 (DOT) iinet.net.au... My response to a pilot request for priority is "Are you declaring an emergency?" If you declare an emergency, you will be given appropriate priority. AA ... and if the answer is in the negative, does the pilot receive any preferential treatment at all? In other words, is there any point asking for priority without declaring an emergency? Not much point - the pilot will receive the priority he is entitled to. However, there are always exceptions AA Back to top Martin Cowley Guest Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:32:06 +1000, "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote: Quote: "Dom" <NOmoadslspam (AT) tpg (DOT) nospam.com.au> wrote in message news:426f4517$1 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au... "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:426ee45c$0$27011$5a62ac22 (AT) per-qv1-newsreader-01 (DOT) iinet.net.au... My response to a pilot request for priority is "Are you declaring an emergency?" If you declare an emergency, you will be given appropriate priority. AA ... and if the answer is in the negative, does the pilot receive any preferential treatment at all? In other words, is there any point asking for priority without declaring an emergency? Not much point - the pilot will receive the priority he is entitled to. However, there are always exceptions AA Idle curiosity - does a pilot who declares an emergency have to make a formal report after landing or is he/she subject to any sort of followup? Back to top Brian Bosley Guest Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "Martin Cowley" <mcowley (AT) senet_remove_this_ (DOT) com.au> wrote in message news:svg071tejfepigf0mm6f3qeu1sr2un9aio (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... Quote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:32:06 +1000, "AA" [email]sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au[/email]> wrote: "Dom" <NOmoadslspam (AT) tpg (DOT) nospam.com.au> wrote in message news:426f4517$1 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au... "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:426ee45c$0$27011$5a62ac22 (AT) per-qv1-newsreader-01 (DOT) iinet.net.au... My response to a pilot request for priority is "Are you declaring an emergency?" If you declare an emergency, you will be given appropriate priority. AA ... and if the answer is in the negative, does the pilot receive any preferential treatment at all? In other words, is there any point asking for priority without declaring an emergency? Not much point - the pilot will receive the priority he is entitled to. However, there are always exceptions AA Idle curiosity - does a pilot who declares an emergency have to make a formal report after landing or is he/she subject to any sort of followup? It used to be an automatic requirement for an Air Saftey Incident Report from both the pilot and the ATS officer first aware ot the emergency. Don't know about now though. There's been a few babies thrown out with the bath water since then Brian Bosley Back to top AA Guest Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "Martin Cowley" <mcowley (AT) senet_remove_this_ (DOT) com.au> wrote Quote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:32:06 +1000, "AA" Idle curiosity - does a pilot who declares an emergency have to make a formal report after landing or is he/she subject to any sort of followup? ATC will submit an incident report - our documentation requires it. If the event meets the definition of an incident (it's pretty broad) or an accident the pilot must submit a report. It is then up to ATSB as to whether or not they investigate. ATSB have policies on what they will or won't investigate. CASA may also follow up incident reports - mainly what they see as breaches of regs, airworthiness issues etc. Airservices conduct internal investigations of ATS related incidents. This is in addition to any investigation that ATSB may carry out. AA Back to top Brian May Guest Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show Quote: "Brian" == Brian Bosley <bosbrian (AT) ozemail (DOT) com.au> writes: Brian> It used to be an automatic requirement for an Air Saftey Brian> Incident Report from both the pilot and the ATS officer Brian> first aware ot the emergency. Don't know about now though. Brian> There's been a few babies thrown out with the bath water Brian> since then I think it depends on the nature of the emergency. The exact criteria is listed in the AIP. One of the points currently listed, as an immediately reportable matter for air transport operations is: * the aircraft's supply of useable fuel becoming so low (whether or not as a result of fuel starvation) that the pilot declares an emergency in flight. For non-air transport operations the above doesn't apply, instead it is a routine reportable matter, with slightly different wording: * the aircraft's supply of useable fuel becoming so low (whether or not as a result of fuel starvation) that the safety of the aircraft is compromised. Which is strange, as it implies that an air transport operation doesn't need to fill in any extra paper work if the failed to declare an emergency, even if the safety of the aircraft was compromised. Yuck. Either that, or I misread something ;-) At the very least, I think ATC are going to want to know what happened (if they don't already know). -- Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> Back to top Martin Cowley Guest Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:31:11 +1000, "AA" <sirronnala (AT) REMove (DOT) yahoo.com.au> wrote: Quote: "Martin Cowley" <mcowley (AT) senet_remove_this_ (DOT) com.au> wrote in message news:svg071tejfepigf0mm6f3qeu1sr2un9aio (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:32:06 +1000, "AA" Idle curiosity - does a pilot who declares an emergency have to make a formal report after landing or is he/she subject to any sort of followup? ATC will submit an incident report - our documentation requires it. If the event meets the definition of an incident (it's pretty broad) or an accident the pilot must submit a report. It is then up to ATSB as to whether or not they investigate. ATSB have policies on what they will or won't investigate. CASA may also follow up incident reports - mainly what they see as breaches of regs, airworthiness issues etc. Airservices conduct internal investigations of ATS related incidents. This is in addition to any investigation that ATSB may carry out. AA Thanks Alan - curiosity satisfied! Back to top Brian Bosley Guest Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: air crash investigation TV show "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote Quote: "Brian" == Brian Bosley <bosbrian (AT) ozemail (DOT) com.au> writes: Brian> It used to be an automatic requirement for an Air Saftey Brian> Incident Report from both the pilot and the ATS officer Brian> first aware ot the emergency. Don't know about now though. Brian> There's been a few babies thrown out with the bath water Brian> since then I think it depends on the nature of the emergency. The exact criteria is listed in the AIP. One of the points currently listed, as an immediately reportable matter for air transport operations is: * the aircraft's supply of useable fuel becoming so low (whether or not as a result of fuel starvation) that the pilot declares an emergency in flight. For non-air transport operations the above doesn't apply, instead it is a routine reportable matter, with slightly different wording: * the aircraft's supply of useable fuel becoming so low (whether or not as a result of fuel starvation) that the safety of the aircraft is compromised. Which is strange, as it implies that an air transport operation doesn't need to fill in any extra paper work if the failed to declare an emergency, even if the safety of the aircraft was compromised. Yuck. Either that, or I misread something ;-) At the very least, I think ATC are going to want to know what happened (if they don't already know). -- Brian May I was assuming that by "declaring and emergency" meant transmitting "mayday" or "pan" which AFAIK is the proper way to do so. In which case, an ASIR used to be automatic. 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