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Kenny Wills
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 Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause such a huge
tragedy.
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peter
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"Kenny Wills" <kenwil (AT) yahool (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause such a huge
tragedy.
Why so excited? That's been known since static tubes were invented. The |
trick is to make sure they are not blocked.
Always take the engineer, who worked on your plane, on the test flight.
peter
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Brian May
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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| Quote: | "Kenny" == Kenny Wills <kenwil (AT) yahool (DOT) com> writes:
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Kenny> Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause
Kenny> such a huge tragedy.
Sounds like a repeat. We have already discussed a similar (if not the
same) show in depth on aus.aviation.
--
Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au>
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John Ewing
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"peter" <peter (AT) junk (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: |
"Kenny Wills" <kenwil (AT) yahool (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:43a94169 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au...
Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause such a huge
tragedy.
Why so excited? That's been known since static tubes were invented. The
trick is to make sure they are not blocked.
Always take the engineer, who worked on your plane, on the test flight.
peter
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Well it wasn't the engineer, it was the guy washing the aircraft who left
the duct tape on. What was more disturbing was the inability of the pilots
to maintain control of the aircraft in this situation. There was a very
necessary reassessment of flight crew training after this incident.
John
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peter
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"John Ewing" <none@needed> wrote
| Quote: |
"peter" <peter (AT) junk (DOT) com.au> wrote in message
news:43a9d1e6$1 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au...
"Kenny Wills" <kenwil (AT) yahool (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:43a94169 (AT) dnews (DOT) tpgi.com.au...
Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause such a huge
tragedy.
Why so excited? That's been known since static tubes were invented. The
trick is to make sure they are not blocked.
Always take the engineer, who worked on your plane, on the test flight.
peter
Well it wasn't the engineer, it was the guy washing the aircraft who left
the duct tape on. What was more disturbing was the inability of the
pilots to maintain control of the aircraft in this situation. There was a
very necessary reassessment of flight crew training after this incident.
John
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I didn't watch the program. As a pilot I always check the static vents (and
a few other things;-)
peter
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veritas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:05 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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Kenny Wills wrote:
| Quote: | Wow a bit of duct tape over the static port holes can cause such a huge
tragedy.
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It is a component that is checked during a standard pilot pre-flight inspection on all aircraft - light or heavy. While
it was acknowledged that the tape would NOT have been easy to see AND it was not the correct tape AND, at least one
previous engineer's inspection should have found it - it was an item that should have finally been picked up by the pilot/s.
As you state - a simple error that caused such a huge tragedy. A timely reminder that there very is good reason for
conducting a conscientious "pre-flight". I say this, not to be smug or to preach, as I have made more than my share of
stupid errors/omissions and have been lucky enough to have gotten away with (most of) them (the emphasis being on
"luck") but as a reminder to aviation aspirants that bloody aeroplanes bight - and often in a savage and or unexpected way!
Cheers....
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AJ
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 10:41:35 +1100, "peter" <peter (AT) junk (DOT) com.au> wrote:
| Quote: |
I didn't watch the program. As a pilot I always check the static vents (and
a few other things;-)
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I saw this one when it come on a while back and I think one of the
problems was the washing person also used the wrong type of tape. When
the pre-flight was being done it was dark and because the wrong tape
had been used it didn't standout. Like all crashes of this nature
multiple breakdowns lead to the accident.
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BB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"peter" <peter (AT) junk (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: |
Always take the engineer, who worked on your plane, on the test flight.
peter
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In the case of something big like a 757 - if you took the engineers who
worked on the a/c immediately previously with you then there'd be no room
for paying passengers...
Seriously though - I'd be surprised if there was a major RPT carrier that
actually took their a/c on test flights - Qantas certainly don't but they do
send an engineer on the first flight on return to service after a major
check to both liase with the pilots and to help sort out any problems
encountered....
Regards,
BB.
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ventus50
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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In most older - read unpresurised - aircraft, there is, or was, an
alternative static source, even internal. With a pressurised aircraft,
it would be necessary to depressurise to use it, but givent the
circumstanaces, that would be acceptable. But pressurisation raises
another question. The pressuisation system controller gets it's static
reading from what sensor, and where ? Are there separate static
sensors (sources) in the air pack inlets, and if so, could their
signal(s) be used in an emergency, indeed, they exist, why aren't they
used as supplemental inputs to the air data computer already ?
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BB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"ventus50" <ventus45 (AT) unwired (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: | In most older - read unpresurised - aircraft, there is, or was, an
alternative static source, even internal. With a pressurised aircraft,
it would be necessary to depressurise to use it, but givent the
circumstanaces, that would be acceptable. But pressurisation raises
another question. The pressuisation system controller gets it's static
reading from what sensor, and where ? Are there separate static
sensors (sources) in the air pack inlets, and if so, could their
signal(s) be used in an emergency, indeed, they exist, why aren't they
used as supplemental inputs to the air data computer already ?
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Large a/c have separate pitot/static systems for both the pilots and
copilots instruments - this by itself providing a measure of redundancy...
Most large Boeings (and I think the 757 because I'm pretty sure it's the
same as the 767) have main static ports combined into the pitot probes
(actually on the side of them)... They do alternate static sources as well
(the flush fuselage type) and usually selected automatically when one of the
pilots change their instrument sourse select switches... Most Airbussen I've
seen have more conventional looking flush mounted static ports on the side
of the fuselage... The layout of the pitot/static system can also be varied
to a degree by customer option...
The cabin pressure controller doesn't have a dedicated static port as such -
it usually gets digitised external static pressure info (altitude) from one
of the digital air data computers - it does have a port to sense cabin
pressure though...
Regards,
BB.
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ventus50
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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Seems like a case for an emergency combined static - pitot system that
can be deployed at the flick of a switch, like a RAT.
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ventus50
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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so you could depressurise and use the cabin pressure port sensor input
to read cabin altitude as a substitute for the normal altimeters, but
that would be only half the answer, you would still need to feed it to
the air data computer so that (assuming the pitot pressures are ok) to
generate airspeed, though it would be inaccurate to some extent, and
would probably have a significant time lag, but, it would be better
than nothing, and in such a situation, you would be doing everything
VERY slowly and carefully anyway.
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RT
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"ventus50" <ventus45 (AT) unwired (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: | Seems like a case for an emergency combined static - pitot system that
can be deployed at the flick of a switch, like a RAT.
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........ once the problem has been recognised......
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Aerostar
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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| Quote: | What was more disturbing was the inability of the pilots
to maintain control of the aircraft in this situation. There >was a very
necessary reassessment of flight crew >training after this incident.
John
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John
Before blame is directed to the pilots, as history has shown as to be a
popular trait, one must consider the circumstances and take a holistic
approach to the causes that led to the accident. I'm not going to babble on
about CRM or Swiss chesses models as such in human factors but consider the
location, time, environment , preceding events and etc. I have personally
flew in Peru for 2 months in a 727-100 and I had the benefit of flying on
"steam driven" analog instruments. The thing with Lima is that there is
always Smog, low level cloud and fog around Lima and the Airforce base. Its
is a regular occurrence after take-off to hit the clag at around 300-700'
range. this is because the pollution weather and winds all get bottled up by
the Andes mountain range. It is hard enough during the day but with the
inaccuracies in depth perception, illusionary effects during night and the
constant conflicting warnings from the aircraft systems all played there
role in causation of the accident in regards to pilots handling. I'm sure
fellow pilots that have EFIS experience on 757/767's and other types can
understand the dilemma of the crew. In any night flying or instrument flying
we are taught to obey our instruments to a point you make it your religion
but still maintain a element of questionability yet in this case if the
instruments are conflicting with each other aural and visual warnings are
going off like a rave party compounded with the problems of night effect
and loss of visual cues how are you suppose to maintain control
effectively.. you might think the light from the moon may of been enough but
trust me at night at Lima you may as well shine a torch through the
windshield especially if your over the ocean. It was not the inability of
the pilots to maintain the control of the aircraft during the situation that
caused the accident but it is the sequences of events before the aircraft
got airborne that caused it. The pilot is merely the person on the sharp end
of the events when accidents occur. Besides all these pilots are trained to
a standard set by Boeing and to merely point the finger to the lack of pilot
skills really is not accurate. The German charter company's aircraft that
had accident prior to Peruvian 757 crash went down with similar
circumstances (Pitot tube blockage) and knowing the European (Back then
German) flying training standards one would not be able to make such a
comment on the basis of inabilities of the pilot skills.
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BB
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Air Crash Investigation 7 tonight wow |
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"ventus50" <ventus45 (AT) unwired (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: | Seems like a case for an emergency combined static - pitot system that
can be deployed at the flick of a switch, like a RAT.
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Don't think that is really that necessary - pilots train in the simulator
for all number of contingecies and incorrectly reading pressure instruments
is among them.... Although they are important they are not the only
instruments in the flightdack - engine and attitude instruments are still
operational and can be used to fly an aircraft in isolation.... The
unfortunate thing is that to use any auxiliary instruments the problem still
has to be identified so it becomes like a chicken and egg scenario - and
like I said a trained pilot should be able to fly without them anyway
(provided they have identified the problemthat is)...
Regards,
BB.
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