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Bill Adams
Guest
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject: Afordable Instruments |
 |
|
I am crafting an instrument panel for my Falcon UL and need to know wher I
can get some afordable and dependable instruments. Can anyone recommend
someone?
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n4mwd.dont.spam.me@amsat.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
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For most people, go visit aircraftspruce.com . They have a lot of
instruments, ranging from high priced to really high priced. For a
true UL, you may be interested in a portable GPS instrument system or
a wristwatch style instrument system. If the description doesn't say
"Not for certified aircraft" then its probably too much.
For me, I like to do things differently. I am building my own
instruments from electronic parts. The airspeed, altitude, and
vertical airspeed can all be obtained from two $10 pressure sensors.
The gyro compass can be made out of a piezo gyro ($40 chip). Coupled
with a magnetic compass, the deviations and corrections can be
computed and displayed as a single bearing readout. Niether the gyro
nor the mag compass are correct all the time, but the cpu can combine
the two into a perfect bearing.
Dennis.
"Bill Adams" <revdoc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | I am crafting an instrument panel for my Falcon UL and need to know wher I
can get some afordable and dependable instruments. Can anyone recommend
someone?
|
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
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| Back to top |
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Brad Blackburn
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
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|
If I had to buy a new panel it would be
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/
Two distributors in the US.
Nice units from one of our old trike list buddies Rainer Lamers.
They weren't available when I bought my EIS unit.
Brad
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| Back to top |
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Bill Adams
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:03 am Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
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|
I would like to get the recipe for these homade instruments. Could you share
it with me?
<n4mwd.dont.spam.me (AT) amsat (DOT) org> wrote
| Quote: |
For most people, go visit aircraftspruce.com . They have a lot of
instruments, ranging from high priced to really high priced. For a
true UL, you may be interested in a portable GPS instrument system or
a wristwatch style instrument system. If the description doesn't say
"Not for certified aircraft" then its probably too much.
For me, I like to do things differently. I am building my own
instruments from electronic parts. The airspeed, altitude, and
vertical airspeed can all be obtained from two $10 pressure sensors.
The gyro compass can be made out of a piezo gyro ($40 chip). Coupled
with a magnetic compass, the deviations and corrections can be
computed and displayed as a single bearing readout. Niether the gyro
nor the mag compass are correct all the time, but the cpu can combine
the two into a perfect bearing.
Dennis.
"Bill Adams" <revdoc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
I am crafting an instrument panel for my Falcon UL and need to know wher
I
can get some afordable and dependable instruments. Can anyone recommend
someone?
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
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|
| Back to top |
|
|
n4mwd.dont.spam.me@amsat.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
I don't have an actual working design as of yet. I have built some
prototype subcomponents. I designed and built a numeric LED display
module for the readouts, but I scraped it because it wasn't
satisfactory in daylight. The final version is going to be graphical
LCD.
The formulas for altitude and airspeed are fairly well known. The
pressure transducers can detect the change in pressure and output a
voltage which can be read into a small cpu. Once you have altitude,
you can calculate the vertical airspeed.
The compass can be a piezo gyro that self corrects with input from a
magnetic compass. Essentially, the cpu does the same thing you are
supposed to do in an aircraft with standard instruments - keep
resetting the gyro compass to the magnetic compass.
You can also do some neat things like automatically generate a
position fix by using VOR. That is, the cpu can triangulate based on
two or more VOR headings to find your exact position. Of course, GPS
would work too, but this is a lot simpler. The only problem is that
VOR doesn't work very well on the ground and GPS does.
What I would really like to include is a database of radio frequencies
so that it would list a set of airport frequencies for the airport
that I am closest to.
But, it needs to get off the drawing board first. My roof (damaged in
the hurricanes) has to come first.
Dennis.
"Bill Adams" <revdoc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | I would like to get the recipe for these homade instruments. Could you share
it with me?
|
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
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| Back to top |
|
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AINut
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:28 am Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
Dennis, I'm doing some similar instrumentation. Motorola pressure
sensors can be used for static and pitot readings. If one also uses a
pressure differential using the two lines that will allow one to meaure
airpseed and altitude. Using a simple integral will yield rate of
climb/descent. Back those up with gps.
I'm still not clear on just how to use the accelerometers and mems gyros
for ahrs readings and "positional updates." Can you enlighten me on
those?
Initially, all my sensors will be tied through labjack U12's
(http://www.labjack.com/) to feed a laptop until all the software is
fleshed out. Later, I may move onto a dedicated miniboard or something.
I'm trying to go a step further and use strain gauges for real time
weight and balance on the ground, but I'm not clear on their equations
either.
Lastly, I'm trying to use common gov't supplied data to give me airspace
boundaries, airport frequencies, terrain, and (maybe) obstructions.
This, used with positional data will allow moving map and
highway-in-the-sky data.
If anyone knows of good 12V stepper motors that may be suitable for
autopilots, I'd sure like to hear about them. Can't find a thing that
is good for 30 ft-lbs. Encoding would be essential.
I have also installed 4 EGT and 4 CHT sensors on my 4 cylinder engine,
each feeding an Analog Devices AD594/595 for engine monitoring.
Other Motorolay pressure sensors will be monitoring manifold absolute
pressure and turbocharger pressures.
Of course, OAT is childs play.
Later,
AI Nut
[email]n4mwd.dont.spam.me (AT) amsat (DOT) org[/email] wrote:
| Quote: | I don't have an actual working design as of yet. I have built some
prototype subcomponents. I designed and built a numeric LED display
module for the readouts, but I scraped it because it wasn't
satisfactory in daylight. The final version is going to be graphical
LCD.
The formulas for altitude and airspeed are fairly well known. The
pressure transducers can detect the change in pressure and output a
voltage which can be read into a small cpu. Once you have altitude,
you can calculate the vertical airspeed.
The compass can be a piezo gyro that self corrects with input from a
magnetic compass. Essentially, the cpu does the same thing you are
supposed to do in an aircraft with standard instruments - keep
resetting the gyro compass to the magnetic compass.
You can also do some neat things like automatically generate a
position fix by using VOR. That is, the cpu can triangulate based on
two or more VOR headings to find your exact position. Of course, GPS
would work too, but this is a lot simpler. The only problem is that
VOR doesn't work very well on the ground and GPS does.
What I would really like to include is a database of radio frequencies
so that it would list a set of airport frequencies for the airport
that I am closest to.
But, it needs to get off the drawing board first. My roof (damaged in
the hurricanes) has to come first.
Dennis.
"Bill Adams" <revdoc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
I would like to get the recipe for these homade instruments. Could you share
it with me?
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
Frank van der Hulst
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
I have a similar project somewhere in the pipeline... I already got the
freebie pressure sensors from Freescale (aka Motorola). Note that
Motorola also offers differential pressure sensors, which seems to me
would be ideal for airspeed measurement.
I think you'll find that a simple differential will give you rate of
climb :-)
I did some work on a project using MEMS accelerometers and magnetometers
for attitude measurement (ocean waves). Basically, you use need 3-axis
of both types of sensors to have a shot at getting 3-axis attitude. Note
that you will probably want a 3-axis magnetometer to get accurate
heading information anyway. Eventually, I'm aiming at getting this
system into an aircraft sometime.
I aim to use a Mitsubishi M16C microcontroller as the data collection
device. The only reason for choosing that over any other micro is that
it is ultimately affordable (i.e. I can get it for free), including
development software.
Eventually, I'll add other systems to the micro -- voltage, EGT & CHT,
RPM, etc. I quite like your strain gauge idea.
For a display device, I'm intending to using a Palm M505 PDA... it'll be
fed data by the M16C via a serial link, and I'll put together some
software to display it. Hopefully, being a fairly moderm PDA, it's
screen will be sunlight-readable.
For stepper motors, try old printers... generally the older the better,
like dot-matrix. Newer ones are all surface mount and plastic. Dunno
whether the steppers in them will have sufficient power, but I guess you
could gear them down. Note that stepper motors produce much more torque
at low RPM than high.
AINut wrote:
| Quote: | Dennis, I'm doing some similar instrumentation. Motorola pressure
sensors can be used for static and pitot readings. If one also uses a
pressure differential using the two lines that will allow one to meaure
airpseed and altitude. Using a simple integral will yield rate of
climb/descent. Back those up with gps.
I'm still not clear on just how to use the accelerometers and mems gyros
for ahrs readings and "positional updates." Can you enlighten me on
those?
Initially, all my sensors will be tied through labjack U12's
(http://www.labjack.com/) to feed a laptop until all the software is
fleshed out. Later, I may move onto a dedicated miniboard or something.
I'm trying to go a step further and use strain gauges for real time
weight and balance on the ground, but I'm not clear on their equations
either.
Lastly, I'm trying to use common gov't supplied data to give me airspace
boundaries, airport frequencies, terrain, and (maybe) obstructions.
This, used with positional data will allow moving map and
highway-in-the-sky data.
If anyone knows of good 12V stepper motors that may be suitable for
autopilots, I'd sure like to hear about them. Can't find a thing that
is good for 30 ft-lbs. Encoding would be essential.
I have also installed 4 EGT and 4 CHT sensors on my 4 cylinder engine,
each feeding an Analog Devices AD594/595 for engine monitoring.
Other Motorolay pressure sensors will be monitoring manifold absolute
pressure and turbocharger pressures.
Of course, OAT is childs play.
Later,
AI Nut
[email]n4mwd.dont.spam.me (AT) amsat (DOT) org[/email] wrote:
I don't have an actual working design as of yet. I have built some
prototype subcomponents. I designed and built a numeric LED display
module for the readouts, but I scraped it because it wasn't
satisfactory in daylight. The final version is going to be graphical
LCD.
The formulas for altitude and airspeed are fairly well known. The
pressure transducers can detect the change in pressure and output a
voltage which can be read into a small cpu. Once you have altitude,
you can calculate the vertical airspeed.
The compass can be a piezo gyro that self corrects with input from a
magnetic compass. Essentially, the cpu does the same thing you are
supposed to do in an aircraft with standard instruments - keep
resetting the gyro compass to the magnetic compass.
You can also do some neat things like automatically generate a
position fix by using VOR. That is, the cpu can triangulate based on
two or more VOR headings to find your exact position. Of course, GPS
would work too, but this is a lot simpler. The only problem is that
VOR doesn't work very well on the ground and GPS does.
What I would really like to include is a database of radio frequencies
so that it would list a set of airport frequencies for the airport
that I am closest to.
But, it needs to get off the drawing board first. My roof (damaged in
the hurricanes) has to come first.
Dennis.
"Bill Adams" <revdoc (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
I would like to get the recipe for these homade instruments. Could
you share it with me?
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
n4mwd.dont.spam.me@amsat.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
Frank van der Hulst <frankv (AT) infogen (DOT) net.enzed> wrote:
| Quote: | I aim to use a Mitsubishi M16C microcontroller as the data collection
device. The only reason for choosing that over any other micro is that
it is ultimately affordable (i.e. I can get it for free), including
development software.
|
I'm planning on using the 8051 or derivatives, PIC and/or and AVR. I
have all the development software for these and can write code pretty
easily. There will probably be more than one. The display processor
for the LCD graphical display pretty much needs a cpu all to itself.
| Quote: | For stepper motors, try old printers... generally the older the better,
like dot-matrix. Newer ones are all surface mount and plastic. Dunno
whether the steppers in them will have sufficient power, but I guess you
could gear them down. Note that stepper motors produce much more torque
at low RPM than high.
|
I hadn't thought about that, but it sounds like a good idea. Finally,
I can find new life for all these old printers stacked up in my
closet.
Dennis.
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
n4mwd.dont.spam.me@amsat.
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
AINut <ainut (AT) hiwaay (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Dennis, I'm doing some similar instrumentation. Motorola pressure
sensors can be used for static and pitot readings. If one also uses a
pressure differential using the two lines that will allow one to meaure
airpseed and altitude. Using a simple integral will yield rate of
climb/descent. Back those up with gps.
|
I haven't chosen a manufacturer yet for the pressure sensors.
Accuracy and stability are critical. I first started exerimenting
with automotive MAP sensors. You'd think these would work, but they
proved unsatisfactory.
They sell USB based GPS's, but I haven't looked into the fine details
of these yet.
| Quote: |
I'm still not clear on just how to use the accelerometers and mems gyros
for ahrs readings and "positional updates." Can you enlighten me on
those?
|
I think you misunderstood. The gyro and mag compass are simply
combined to form an accurate and stable "universal" compass. They
don't really tell you all that much as far as your position - just
which way you're pointed.
Position can be fixed by triangulating on several VOR frequencies.
There is also ADF, but that is actually more complicated stuff and
less reliable because few airports have them (at least around here),
the range is usually very limited and in some cases, the transmitter
is not even located at the airport.
VOR doesn't need anything special. Just a scanning reciever and these
are easily made.
| Quote: | Initially, all my sensors will be tied through labjack U12's
(http://www.labjack.com/) to feed a laptop until all the software is
fleshed out. Later, I may move onto a dedicated miniboard or something.
|
I plan to use several miniboards and a transflective graphical LCD
display. Most laptops and PDA's I've seen do not perform very well in
daylight. This was the mistake I made with the LED displays.
Indoors, they work very nice - they are bright enough that with a
magnifying glass, I can project the numbers onto a wall 10 feet away
and still read them. Outdoors, the numbers disappear.
I suggest that anyone condidering a project like this take their
laptop/PDA out in the sun and see how well it works out there before
making any commitment to it for this type of job. Also, consider the
fact that UL's are supposed to be day flyers only.
| Quote: |
I'm trying to go a step further and use strain gauges for real time
weight and balance on the ground, but I'm not clear on their equations
either.
|
I haven't gone there. Please elaborate.
| Quote: |
Lastly, I'm trying to use common gov't supplied data to give me airspace
boundaries, airport frequencies, terrain, and (maybe) obstructions.
This, used with positional data will allow moving map and
highway-in-the-sky data.
|
I'm pretty sure that this involves a lot of work. I had thought about
this, but I put as the last thing to do because it sounds rather
involved. Where are you getting the .gov data from?
| Quote: |
If anyone knows of good 12V stepper motors that may be suitable for
autopilots, I'd sure like to hear about them. Can't find a thing that
is good for 30 ft-lbs. Encoding would be essential.
|
I'd suggest, rather than a stepper motor, a regular 12VDC PM motor
with a geared head. Avoid worm geared heads. You can easily control
the speed and direction of the motor to control the aircraft. The
difficult part is in connecting it up mechanically in such a way that
the pilot can take control back in an instant if he has to.
Dennis.
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jean-Paul Roy
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
Brad, I have the FF-1 fuel moniter Smart single and it works like a charm.
When I'll redo my panel, I'll install one of the Stratomaster serie.
J.P.
"Brad Blackburn" <crevicecave (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote
| Quote: | If I had to buy a new panel it would be
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/
Two distributors in the US.
Nice units from one of our old trike list buddies Rainer Lamers.
They weren't available when I bought my EIS unit.
Brad
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AINut
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
[email]n4mwd.dont.spam.me (AT) amsat (DOT) org[/email] wrote:
| Quote: | AINut <ainut (AT) hiwaay (DOT) net> wrote:
Dennis, I'm doing some similar instrumentation. Motorola pressure
sensors can be used for static and pitot readings. If one also uses a
pressure differential using the two lines that will allow one to meaure
airpseed and altitude. Using a simple integral will yield rate of
climb/descent. Back those up with gps.
I haven't chosen a manufacturer yet for the pressure sensors.
Accuracy and stability are critical. I first started exerimenting
with automotive MAP sensors. You'd think these would work, but they
proved unsatisfactory.
They sell USB based GPS's, but I haven't looked into the fine details
of these yet.
I'm still not clear on just how to use the accelerometers and mems gyros
for ahrs readings and "positional updates." Can you enlighten me on
those?
I think you misunderstood. The gyro and mag compass are simply
combined to form an accurate and stable "universal" compass. They
don't really tell you all that much as far as your position - just
which way you're pointed.
Position can be fixed by triangulating on several VOR frequencies.
There is also ADF, but that is actually more complicated stuff and
less reliable because few airports have them (at least around here),
the range is usually very limited and in some cases, the transmitter
is not even located at the airport.
VOR doesn't need anything special. Just a scanning reciever and these
are easily made.
I would like to use the computer to control the VOR receiver. This will |
allow automatic freq scans and backup triangulation to the GPS data.
I personally don't have the expertise to build one of these. I'd still
like to have one or two  .
| Quote: | Initially, all my sensors will be tied through labjack U12's
(http://www.labjack.com/) to feed a laptop until all the software is
fleshed out. Later, I may move onto a dedicated miniboard or something.
I plan to use several miniboards and a transflective graphical LCD
display. Most laptops and PDA's I've seen do not perform very well in
daylight. This was the mistake I made with the LED displays.
Indoors, they work very nice - they are bright enough that with a
magnifying glass, I can project the numbers onto a wall 10 feet away
and still read them. Outdoors, the numbers disappear.
In an enclosed cockpit, one can wrap a simple, lightweight 3 sided box |
to cover the top and sides of the screen, allowing its use in day or night.
| Quote: | I suggest that anyone condidering a project like this take their
laptop/PDA out in the sun and see how well it works out there before
making any commitment to it for this type of job. Also, consider the
fact that UL's are supposed to be day flyers only.
I'm trying to go a step further and use strain gauges for real time
weight and balance on the ground, but I'm not clear on their equations
either.
I haven't gone there. Please elaborate.
Strain gauges placed on each leg of the landing gear can be calibrated |
against zero weight (with bird held up by something else) and against a
known scale for the other end. I have yet to find the specific gauges
that are appropriate for these weight ranges or their a/d capabilities.
| Quote: |
Lastly, I'm trying to use common gov't supplied data to give me airspace
boundaries, airport frequencies, terrain, and (maybe) obstructions.
This, used with positional data will allow moving map and
highway-in-the-sky data.
Look at afips, strm, and other gov't sources. Mostly, they're free. |
Yes it is a LOT of work.
| Quote: |
I'm pretty sure that this involves a lot of work. I had thought about
this, but I put as the last thing to do because it sounds rather
involved. Where are you getting the .gov data from?
If anyone knows of good 12V stepper motors that may be suitable for
autopilots, I'd sure like to hear about them. Can't find a thing that
is good for 30 ft-lbs. Encoding would be essential.
I'd suggest, rather than a stepper motor, a regular 12VDC PM motor
with a geared head. Avoid worm geared heads. You can easily control
the speed and direction of the motor to control the aircraft. The
difficult part is in connecting it up mechanically in such a way that
the pilot can take control back in an instant if he has to.
|
That's what I liked about steppers; by removing power a stepper will
become free reeling. By "pm motor" do you mean a pulse-width controlled
type?
| Quote: |
Dennis.
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
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| Back to top |
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|
AINut
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
Speaking of fuel monitors, is there a reliable fuel flow monitor that
has 0-5vdc or 0-10vdc output, without restricting fuel flow
significantly? It would be really nice if we could integrate fuel
useage into the engine monitoring.
Jean-Paul Roy wrote:
| Quote: | Brad, I have the FF-1 fuel moniter Smart single and it works like a charm.
When I'll redo my panel, I'll install one of the Stratomaster serie.
J.P.
"Brad Blackburn" <crevicecave (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:7haQd.1686$_r5.548 (AT) fe07 (DOT) lga...
If I had to buy a new panel it would be
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/
Two distributors in the US.
Nice units from one of our old trike list buddies Rainer Lamers.
They weren't available when I bought my EIS unit.
Brad
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard Carlisle
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
| Quote: |
If anyone knows of good 12V stepper motors that may be suitable for
autopilots, I'd sure like to hear about them. Can't find a thing that
is good for 30 ft-lbs. Encoding would be essential.
|
If you found a 30ft/lb stepper, you wouldn't want to haul it into the air.
The 1200oz/in motors on my CNC router must weigh close to 10lbs each. Just
take a small 100-200oz/in stepper and attach a gearbox. You'd want to
reduce it for resolution anyway. Hook it up to a Gecko driver and pulse the
driver with a PIC.
Ross
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| Back to top |
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Jean-Paul Roy
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
I also have the fuel flow sender connected to my FF-1 Smart single. Does
give me my consumption any way I want it Litre/hour, gal/hour. Can be
programmed the way you want it.
J.P.
"AINut" <ainut (AT) hiwaay (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: | Speaking of fuel monitors, is there a reliable fuel flow monitor that
has 0-5vdc or 0-10vdc output, without restricting fuel flow
significantly? It would be really nice if we could integrate fuel
useage into the engine monitoring.
Jean-Paul Roy wrote:
Brad, I have the FF-1 fuel moniter Smart single and it works like a
charm.
When I'll redo my panel, I'll install one of the Stratomaster serie.
J.P.
"Brad Blackburn" <crevicecave (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:7haQd.1686$_r5.548 (AT) fe07 (DOT) lga...
If I had to buy a new panel it would be
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/
Two distributors in the US.
Nice units from one of our old trike list buddies Rainer Lamers.
They weren't available when I bought my EIS unit.
Brad
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
n4mwd.dont.spam.me@amsat.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Afordable Instruments |
|
|
AINut <ainut (AT) hiwaay (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | That's what I liked about steppers; by removing power a stepper will
become free reeling. By "pm motor" do you mean a pulse-width controlled
type?
|
PM= "Permanent Magnet". Perhaps you can get a stepper with a gear
reduction on it to give you the torque you need.
Dennis.
Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
|
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