AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  AF1 range/route/refueling? Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Military Aircraft View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message David Lesher Guest Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: AF1 range/route/refueling? Re: Turkey Dinner Tour Now, http://gc.kls2.com/ says the Great Circle distance KADW->BGW is 6200m, and AF1 has a published range of ~~7300 miles. But Great Circle would have taken them across multiple countries, including those evil fried potato folks; so I'd assume they did not use that route. I'd also assume they would never get near trouble without large reserves. Was there an unannounced refueling stop? I know the 747B's have capability for in-flight refueling but doubt they would do that. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz (AT) nrk (DOT) com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 Back to top tscottme Guest Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? David Lesher <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Re: Turkey Dinner Tour Now, http://gc.kls2.com/ says the Great Circle distance KADW->BGW is 6200m, and AF1 has a published range of ~~7300 miles. I assume that AF1 didn't land anywhere in Europe or there would be messages from 908 plane spotting dweebs announcing the details. What a bunch of losers. -- Scott -------- Monitor the latest efforts of "peaceful Muslims" at http://www.jihadwatch.org/ Back to top David Lesher Guest Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "tscottme" <blahblah (AT) blah (DOT) net> writes: Quote: David Lesher <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote in message news:bq5mu0$c7$1 (AT) reader2 (DOT) panix.com... Re: Turkey Dinner Tour Now, http://gc.kls2.com/ says the Great Circle distance KADW->BGW is 6200m, and AF1 has a published range of ~~7300 miles. I assume that AF1 didn't land anywhere in Europe or there would be messages from 908 plane spotting dweebs announcing the details. What a bunch of losers. Hence my query. Canary Islands, maybe? Perhaps an airbase but that would be hard to conceal... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz (AT) nrk (DOT) com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 Back to top Ragnar Guest Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "David Lesher" <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Was there an unannounced refueling stop? I know the 747B's have capability for in-flight refueling but doubt they would do that. Why would you doubt that? Back to top David Hartung Guest Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "David Lesher" <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "tscottme" <blahblah (AT) blah (DOT) net> writes: David Lesher <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote in message news:bq5mu0$c7$1 (AT) reader2 (DOT) panix.com... Re: Turkey Dinner Tour Now, http://gc.kls2.com/ says the Great Circle distance KADW->BGW is 6200m, and AF1 has a published range of ~~7300 miles. I assume that AF1 didn't land anywhere in Europe or there would be messages from 908 plane spotting dweebs announcing the details. What a bunch of losers. Hence my query. Canary Islands, maybe? Perhaps an airbase but that would be hard to conceal... If I recall, AF1 has inflight refueling capability. Back to top Gene Storey Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? It's only a 15 hour flight via the Med (the long way) from DC, so I would assume a 747 can do that easily. We used to fly to Saudi, and only refueled up in Maine so we had enough fuel for alternates once we got to England. That was in a 707 type, and they needed about 15k lbs of fuel for weight and balance. Talk about a squirrely airplane! Get below 15k and that pig was all over the sky... I used to joke that we might have to have everyone cram forward to get the nose down (especially Fat-Jake to 300 lb Chief :-) Back to top David Lesher Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> writes: Quote: Was there an unannounced refueling stop? I know the 747B's have capability for in-flight refueling but doubt they would do that. Why would you doubt that? A friend was on a KC10 that got refueled twice en-route to Africa. He vividly described the number of PX's who lost their lunch into the issued barf bags. The only reason for the refueling was proficiency practice for the crew. I doubt the AF1 crew practices that aspect that all that often, and in fact don't know it's ever been used. I'll let BUFDVR etc comment but I'd always read it was somewhat risky maneuver on the best days. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz (AT) nrk (DOT) com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 Back to top Gene Storey Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:37 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "David Lesher" <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: [snip] but I'd always read it was somewhat risky maneuver on the best days. It's easier than flying formation. I once had a co-pilot who fell asleep during the contact. I was kind of half-paying attention to our position, and just mentioned that we were closing a bit, and nothing happened, so I looked at him and he was asleep! My fear was that he would kick the rudder, so I called a break-away (chop the throttles, speed-brakes, and nose over at about -2 g's all in one move). That woke everybody up! Hee. Back to top Jim Herring Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? tscottme wrote: Quote: I assume that AF1 didn't land anywhere in Europe or there would be messages from 908 plane spotting dweebs announcing the details. What a bunch of losers. One news report said a British Airways plane saw AF1. The pilot radioed "is that Air Force 1". AF1 responded "no, we're a Gulf Stream". After a pause the BA pilot said "Okay". :) -- Jim carry on ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Back to top Ragnar Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "David Lesher" <wb8foz (AT) panix (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> writes: Was there an unannounced refueling stop? I know the 747B's have capability for in-flight refueling but doubt they would do that. Why would you doubt that? A friend was on a KC10 that got refueled twice en-route to Africa. He vividly described the number of PX's who lost their lunch into the issued barf bags. One anecdotal example of wussy passengers does not mean air refuelling is either dangerous or rare. Quote: The only reason for the refueling was proficiency practice for the crew. So? The only way to get air refuelling proficiency is to do it. Quote: I doubt the AF1 crew practices that aspect that all that often Your doubts are based on faulty assumptions. Quote: , and in fact don't know it's ever been used. All flight crew on air refuelable aircraft are required to perform A/R proficiency a set number of times per month, quarter, and year. The B747 used for the President is air refuellable and has a flight crew. Ergo, they do A/R. Quote: I'll let BUFDVR etc comment but I'd always read it was somewhat risky maneuver on the best days. Risky? Flying in and of itself is risky. Perhaps you could do some basic research and check out how many times A/R has resulted in the loss of an aircraft. You'll find that taking off and landing in perfect weather is more dangerous. Back to top Michael Williamson Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:29 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? David Lesher wrote: Quote: Was there an unannounced refueling stop? I know the 747B's have capability for in-flight refueling but doubt they would do that. Why would you doubt that? A friend was on a KC10 that got refueled twice en-route to Africa. He vividly described the number of PX's who lost their lunch into the issued barf bags. The only reason for the refueling was proficiency practice for the crew. I doubt the AF1 crew practices that aspect that all that often, and in fact don't know it's ever been used. I'll let BUFDVR etc comment but I'd always read it was somewhat risky maneuver on the best days. Any aircrew flying the aircraft would have specific currency requirements for Air Refuelling, and if the crew isn't current in it, they won't be flying on any operational mission. As far as getting practice, they fly many sorties without passengers specifically to get their various currencies updated. As for air refuelling being risky, I don't think it is all that risky, and I do it regularly in a C-130 behind both KC-135s and -10s. C-141s and C-5s carrying both passengers and cargo refuel as necessary based on their mission profiles, AFAIK. Mike Back to top Keith Willshaw Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> wrote Quote: Risky? Flying in and of itself is risky. Perhaps you could do some basic research and check out how many times A/R has resulted in the loss of an aircraft. You'll find that taking off and landing in perfect weather is more dangerous. I can think of at least one hi-profile accident and thats the B-52 that went down at Palomares , Spain with live weapons aboard. Keith Back to top Ragnar Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "Keith Willshaw" <keithspam (AT) kwillshaw (DOT) demon.co.uk> wrote Quote: "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> wrote in message news:bq6eao$sd1$1 (AT) news1 (DOT) kornet.net... Risky? Flying in and of itself is risky. Perhaps you could do some basic research and check out how many times A/R has resulted in the loss of an aircraft. You'll find that taking off and landing in perfect weather is more dangerous. I can think of at least one hi-profile accident and thats the B-52 that went down at Palomares , Spain with live weapons aboard. Yes, in 1966. If thats the best incident that can be recalled, then my original point is well validated. Back to top Keith Willshaw Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> wrote Quote: "Keith Willshaw" <keithspam (AT) kwillshaw (DOT) demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:bq6v0q$i68$1$8302bc10 (AT) news (DOT) demon.co.uk... "Ragnar" <rworkss (AT) kornet (DOT) net> wrote in message news:bq6eao$sd1$1 (AT) news1 (DOT) kornet.net... Risky? Flying in and of itself is risky. Perhaps you could do some basic research and check out how many times A/R has resulted in the loss of an aircraft. You'll find that taking off and landing in perfect weather is more dangerous. I can think of at least one hi-profile accident and thats the B-52 that went down at Palomares , Spain with live weapons aboard. Yes, in 1966. If thats the best incident that can be recalled, then my original point is well validated. Not really, I only recalled that incident because it was splashed across the world media for weeks, that hardly makes it the only flight refuelling accident that ever happened I found an article by MAJ CHRISTOPHER TIMBERLAKE of Offutt AFB, Nebraska in which he stated "Air refueling accidents represent a significant percentage of large military aircraft accidents simply because of the precise parameters the task requires." So while the risk may be low its clearly not zero. The article is at http://safety.kirtland.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/aprmag97/apr97010.htm Interestingly it has an image of a 747 being refulled in flight Keith Back to top Kyle Boatright Guest Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: AF1 range/route/refueling? "Keith Willshaw" <keithNoSpam (AT) kwillshaw (DOT) demon.co.uk> wrote <snip> Quote: So while the risk may be low its clearly not zero. The article is at http://safety.kirtland.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/aprmag97/apr97010.htm Interestingly it has an image of a 747 being refulled in flight Keith A couple of factors that greatly influence the safety of inflight refueling are weather and daylight. If you're in clear smooth weather during daylight, the risks are minimized. I've been on KC-10's passing and recieving gas, and can tell you that if you were sitting in the back on a smooth day, you wouldn't know you were in a refueling operation. Even IF AF1 was refueled inflight on this trip, the airplane has enough range so the flight planners had the option to select a time and location with good weather and daylight. 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