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Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 7:01 am Post subject: AF Academy finished

"Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young women, aged 16 and 18. " As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and the tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There is no reason for it's further existence.

Vaughn
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Joey Bishop" <jbishop88 (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Seven 20- and 21-year-old cadets were ticketed by police for drinking
alcohol in an off-campus hotel room early Saturday with two young
women, aged 16 and 18. "

Horrors! College kids actually drinking and pairing off with the

opposite sex? What is this world coming to?

Quote:

As far as I'm concerned, the AF Academy has failed it's mission, and the
tax dollars should be shifted to the Army and Naval Academies. There is
no reason for it's further existence.

Bullshit. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)

Quote:

Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Vaughn" <vaughnsimon (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

Bullshit. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Yea. Never mind. You're right. What the hell, it's free money anyway,
and the public can kiss their ass.

Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"ArtKramr" <artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.

Yea. You're right. It's free money anyway, so the public can
just kiss their ass.

Brian
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:45 am Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"ArtKramr" <artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote

Quote:

From: "Vaughn" [email]vaughnsimonHATESSPAM (AT) att (DOT) fake.net[/email]
Bullshit. Do you really think that there is no drinking and whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)

Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.

The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn from
the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines should
be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled onto a
base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
"brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more educated".

Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:09 am Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Brian" <Witch*Dr (AT) usa (DOT) nojunkemail.net.ru> wrote

Quote:

These were the officers who rose through the ranks in the 80's when the military
had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public apathy,
and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university, and the
result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their distinction.
Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.

John Smith
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Joey Bishop" <jbishop88 (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

"Brian" <Witch*Dr (AT) usa (DOT) nojunkemail.net.ru> wrote

The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn
from
the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines
should
be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled
onto a
base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
"brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more
educated".

These were the officers who rose through the ranks in the 80's when the
military
had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public
apathy,
and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university,
and the
result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their
distinction.
Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.

And what is it that you do for our country, Sir ?

John Smith
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Brian" <Witch*Dr (AT) usa (DOT) nojunkemail.net.ru> wrote

Quote:

"ArtKramr" <artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:20030830182524.14331.00000251 (AT) mb-m18 (DOT) aol.com...
From: "Vaughn" [email]vaughnsimonHATESSPAM (AT) att (DOT) fake.net[/email]
Bullshit. Do you really think that there is no drinking and
whoring
going on at the Army and Navy Academies?

Vaughn (an ex-Navy guy)

Then there was Tailhook. How soon they forget.

The Navy hasn't forgotten....the problem is the Air Force didn't learn
from
the Navy. I guess every service has to go through it so the Marines should
be due in about 4 years. The USAFA chain of command should be hauled onto
a
base for public flogging. Idiots. And these are supposed to be our
"brightest and most talented". So much for 0fficers being "more educated".

Agree to a point. It's lack of discipline. Too many commanders can't do
anything without their lawyers present to make sure they won't get sued.

Young cadets and airman can get away with more now than before without being
disciplined so that's what you get.

Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.

Mike Marron
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

Quote:

"John Carrier" <jxc2 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

While we're being regularly presented with these dismal details on the
national news (something like 20% victimized in a "sexual assault," an
amazing number of rapes), I'd like to know what they're using as the
operative definition of the crimes.

Some policitically correct definition no doubt. We've been through all
this before. In other words, forget the AFA because if an all out war
breaks out somewhere...

-Mike (the enemy would rape the estrogen right outta' them!) Marron

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

Quote:

Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
From: "John Smith" [email]divx (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email]
Date: 8/31/03 5:38 AM Pacific

Too many lawyers and politics in the military today.

Without lawyers there is no rule of law. Besides, the lawyers raped no one.
Keep you eye on the ball.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

Quote:

Subject: Re: AF Academy finished
From: "Jim Baker" [email]jfbaker (AT) adelphia (DOT) net[/email]
Date: 8/31/03 7:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time

0's when the
military
had to take what they could get. The ranks were decimated by the public
apathy,
and poor pay. I think they are still running the place like a university,
and the
result will be more of the same. They have lost their pride, and their
distinction.
Today, I would no more hire an Academy graduate, than a convicted thief.

Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?There
have been mistakes made recently and through investigations and punishment
have/has been and should be, as the situation unfolds, meted out. Also,
your "sky is falling" statements show you have no historical perspective.
The academies go through periodic "scandals" (I remember them from the
1950's up to today) that are due to their atypically high moral/ethical
standards compared to other universities. I understand the severity of rape
when compared to cheating and lying. The USAF will properly deal with the
problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
harassment/rape episodes at their academies.

Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

Jim Baker
ROTC Graduate

Well said and long needed saying.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Jim Baker" <jfbaker (AT) adelphia (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

Those first two sentences are the statements of an ignorant person. The pay
raises of 1980, 1981 (about 25% in those two years bringing pay to approx.
civilian par for several years) were the highest in decades, before or
since. Also, due to the pay raises and obvious support from the President,
the military was rejuvenated, the antithesis of decimated, when Reagan was
elected following the debacle of the "hollow force" created under Ford and
Carter in the 1970s. So the entire underpinning of your argument is wrong.

Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
that destroyed the Academies high standards.

Quote:

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

Quote:

I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
whore house at the tax payers expense.

Joey

Brian
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Jim Baker" <jfbaker (AT) adelphia (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

The USAF will properly deal with the
problem just as the Army and Navy have properly dealt with sexual
harassment/rape episodes at their academies.

Here's where you are completely wrong. Had the USAF properly dealt with the
problem, we would not be at this stage of the game. Hence, they will suffer
just like the Navy and Army did. What we have here is commanders pushing
crap under the rug to save their own ass. Burying stuff has never worked.
The Navy tried it with Tailhook..it didn't work. The Army tried it at
Aberdeen..it didn't work. The *only* way to deal with unpleasant things is
to deal with them. That is what leadership is about and that is what the
USAFA sorely lacked. I just can't fathom how these so called "leaders"
screwed this up so bad.

Ed Rasimus
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Joey Bishop" <jbishop88 (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

"Jim Baker" <jfbaker (AT) adelphia (DOT) net> wrote

Using this kind of logic, we must have brought in new Majors, and Colonels
right off the street, rather than promote the dregs of the late 70's, early 80's.
My argument is, that the dregs of the anti-military years, became the Generals
that destroyed the Academies high standards.

How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?
Would you believe two--the Superintendent (a 3-star) and the
Commandant of Cadets (1-star). Would you like to name some names of
these "dregs" that destroyed the high standards? Maybe we could look
more profitably at the Academy Board of Visitors--those
Congresspersons and their appointees who were supposedly the
over-sight for the institution.

There's long been a philosophy of the military "eating their
young"--holding a wing commander responsible for aircraft accidents or
discipline breaches. It is reasonable to an extent. A commander should
be in control of his/her organization. But, it often becomes
unreasonable when the commander is punished for actions or results of
which they could have had no warning or which occurred in direct
violation of their orders.

Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
equally appropriate.

Quote:

I would also disagree that the service academies are run like a "typical"
public university. Have you ever been to one during the school year?

The number of cadets off campus is astounding. It's almost like they spend
most of their time away from the Academy. I go to Colorado a lot.

Do you really? Where did you see this "astounding" number? Was it
maybe "Parent's Weekend" over Labor Day? I LIVE in Colorado Springs,
about three miles from the Academy main gate. I frequent the Academy
for retiree services. I'm astounded by how seldom I see cadets in
uniform off the facility. With nearly 4000 cadets in training, it
would seem reasonable to see a lot more. I see plenty of GI's--after
all, we've got Peterson AFB, Schriever AFB, Cheyenne Mt AFS, Fort
Carson and AFA all in Colorado Springs. Could you be mis-identifying
military members for cadets?

Quote:

Finally, your last statement shows you to be woefully stupid. God help your
organization with thinking like that. Actually, since the students are
Americans, you probably wouldn't want to hire any Americans. I mean to say,
the few taints the many in your argument, therefore no kid can be trusted if
a few kids screw up. Brilliant thinking.

I value a college degree, but above that, I value the institution that handed-out
the degree. If I think the institution is just a whore house, or a den of thieves,
then I could care less what paper you are trying to hand me. I'd rather hire
non-Americans if it comes to that. I want to work with people who value
the community. Right now I don't value the institution of the AF Academy,
and whoever shows up with paper from it, can kiss my ass. It's just a
whore house at the tax payers expense.

Joey

The won't show up with a "paper from it" until they've graduated and
served their country for several years. In that time, they will have
possibly graduated from pilot training, flown multi-million dollar
systems for severals years and maybe been in combat. They probably
have earned an advanced degree and they undoubtedly have supervised
more people, larger budgets, bigger projects with more responsibility
than their civilian counterparts. They are the ones that met the
standard, graduated and succeeded.

The ones who are getting the bad press, are the ones who will be
weededd out. They are in the decidedly small minority.

But, you manage your business the way you think best.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Joey Bishop
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: AF Academy finished

"Ed Rasimus" <rasimus (AT) adelphia (DOT) net> wrote

Quote:

How many general officers are assigned to the Academy at one time?

I think it took years to get where it is. We're talking about successive
regimes.

Quote:

Fortunately, the response of General Jumper and Secretary Roche have
been predominantly reasonable and proper. The initial corrective
policies being established by Sup't Rosa and Commandant Weida seem
equally appropriate.

But, the student body hasn't changed their mindset. Just this week more
were arrested with booze and teen whores in a Motel.

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