AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Aerotow with Diesel engine? Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Olfert Cleveringa Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:08 pm    Post subject: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Some aero-engine and car manufacturers are working on Diesel engines for use in small aircraft. There are now quite a lot of aircraft types flying with these engines. Is there anyone who can say something useful on recent Diesel engines in glider-towing operation? Practical information (climb ratio, technical and financial aspects, reliability etc.) would be very welcome. Or a club where such a towplane is in use or tested. Thanks for the info, Olfert Hornet A7, Netherlands. Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "Olfert Cleveringa" <olfertREMOVE_to_reply (AT) gmx (DOT) co.uk> wrote Quote: Some aero-engine and car manufacturers are working on Diesel engines for use in small aircraft. There are now quite a lot of aircraft types flying with these engines. Is there anyone who can say something useful on recent Diesel engines in glider-towing operation? Practical information (climb ratio, technical and financial aspects, reliability etc.) would be very welcome. Or a club where such a towplane is in use or tested. Thanks for the info, Olfert Hornet A7, Netherlands. I've spoken with the good folks at DeltaHawk, a US based manufacturer of liquid cooled V4 2-stroke diesels in the 200 HP range. See: http://www.deltahawkengines.com/ They feel their engine would make a near perfect tug engine. Look carefully at the Specific Fuel Consumption (SFC) and the altitude performance. DeltaHawk is busy working with airframe manufacturers to create 'firewall forward" installation packages. A rumor is that they have a very large order from the US government for drone engines that will let them work out the mass production bugs and provide the company with financial stability. Diesels make power at lower RPM's than a spark ignition engine so they can use larger, quieter, more efficient propellers. A 200 HP diesel would be the equivalent of a 260 HP Lycoming O-540 because of the greater propeller efficiency. An added benefit would be the ability to legally use untaxed agricultural diesel fuel (red diesel in the US). Even in the US, fuel is a major expense for tug operators. Bill Daniels Back to top Stefan Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: They feel their engine would make a near perfect tug engine. Surprize! :-) Quote: A rumor is ... So much for "practical information". Quote: Diesels make power at lower RPM's than a spark ignition engine so they can use larger, quieter, more efficient propellers. There isn't a requirement anywhere that propellers have to be direct driven. Actually, the only diesel flying today uses a gearbox. (Sorry for my unfair quoting, but I couldn't resist.) Stefan Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "Stefan" <stefan (AT) mus (DOT) _INVALID_.ch> wrote Quote: Bill Daniels wrote: They feel their engine would make a near perfect tug engine. Surprize! Selling an engine for an inappropriate use is a good way to get a bad reputation. Engine manufacturers who plan to stay in business are very careful about this. I have good feelings about Doug Doer and his group of engineers. Quote: Diesels make power at lower RPM's than a spark ignition engine so they can use larger, quieter, more efficient propellers. There isn't a requirement anywhere that propellers have to be direct driven. Actually, the only diesel flying today uses a gearbox. The DeltaHawk is flying with good results. Geared propellers are a good idea but they seem to work best with a large number of cylinders and in large aircraft where the weight penalty isn't so great. Bill Daniels Back to top Stefan Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: I have good feelings about Doug Doer and his group of engineers. Don't get me wrong: I'm hoping the best for them (und us). But the original question was about experiences... Stefan Back to top Bruce Greeff Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Stefan wrote: Quote: Bill Daniels wrote: They feel their engine would make a near perfect tug engine. Surprize! :-) A rumor is ... So much for "practical information". Diesels make power at lower RPM's than a spark ignition engine so they can use larger, quieter, more efficient propellers. There isn't a requirement anywhere that propellers have to be direct driven. Actually, the only diesel flying today uses a gearbox. (Sorry for my unfair quoting, but I couldn't resist.) Stefan Not entirely accurate. There is a three cylinder, direct drive two stroke diesel flying in the UK - WAM120. Look at http://www.wilksch.com/ Mark Wilksch is certainly not following conventional wisdom here. Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "Bruce Greeff" <bgpub (AT) wesgray (DOT) co.za> wrote Quote: There is a three cylinder, direct drive two stroke diesel flying in the UK - WAM120. Look at http://www.wilksch.com/ Mark Wilksch is certainly not following conventional wisdom here. The UK also has Diesel Air's Dair-100 - a two cylinder, four opposed piston two stroke diesel that is a near drop in replacement for a Continental O-200. See: http://www.dair.co.uk/ They report that they have been running at 135 HP on the dyno which, in an optimized airframe like a touring motorglider, would make a very nice tug engine. Bill Daniels Back to top John Galloway Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? There is also the Zoche radial 2 stroke engine: http://www.zoche.de/ although I have been mainly watching the progress of the Wilksch engine because anyone who designs his own 2 stroke cycle has got to be worth a bit of interest: http://www.wilksch.com/Cycle-1.jpg John Galloway At 20:06 21 October 2004, Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: 'Bruce Greeff' wrote in message news:cl90kd$21g$1 (AT) ctb-nnrp2 (DOT) saix.net... There is a three cylinder, direct drive two stroke diesel flying in the UK - WAM120. Look at http://www.wilksch.com/ Mark Wilksch is certainly not following conventional wisdom here. The UK also has Diesel Air's Dair-100 - a two cylinder, four opposed piston two stroke diesel that is a near drop in replacement for a Continental O-200. See: http://www.dair.co.uk/ They report that they have been running at 135 HP on the dyno which, in an optimized airframe like a touring motorglider, would make a very nice tug engine. Bill Daniels Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "John Galloway" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.jpg797 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: There is also the Zoche radial 2 stroke engine: http://www.zoche.de/ The Zoche web site has been dormant for several years. I haven't heard anything new about them since about 1998. BTW, reading the Diesel Air Ltd. site about the ducted fan dirigible application, they say that they get 8 pounds of static thrust for each HP. If 100 HP = 800 pounds of thrust, that stacks up pretty well against a 235 Pawnee that only produces about 390 pounds of thrust. That would be good for avoiding wing dropping. Bill Daniels Back to top Z Goudie Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: Reading the Diesel Air Ltd. site about the ducted fan dirigible application, they say that they get 8 pounds of static thrust for each HP. If 100 HP = 800 pounds of thrust, that stacks up pretty well against a 235 Pawnee that only produces about 390 pounds of thrust. That would be good for avoiding wing dropping. Jings, crivvens, I can just see the FAA, CAA or JAR falling all over themselves to approve a ducted fan for an existing airframe. A diesel engine of a given horsepower with a propeller on it will produce the same thrust as similar power petrol (gas, steam) one. It will, if turbo charged (another complication), produce sea level power up to a considerable height but I don't think that's a major problem for near sea level dwellers. As far as I can see what's driving the production of diesel engines in Europe is the low/no tax on diesel or jet fuel. How long will it take the fiscal authorities to latch on to that one I wonder? Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "Z Goudie" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.zgoudie (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Bill Daniels wrote: Reading the Diesel Air Ltd. site about the ducted fan dirigible application, they say that they get 8 pounds of static thrust for each HP. If 100 HP = 800 pounds of thrust, that stacks up pretty well against a 235 Pawnee that only produces about 390 pounds of thrust. That would be good for avoiding wing dropping. Jings, crivvens, I can just see the FAA, CAA or JAR falling all over themselves to approve a ducted fan for an existing airframe. The new Sport Light Aircraft regulations (US) have specific language permitting experimental glider tugs. Nobody said anything about fitting a ducted fan to an existing airframe. Quote: A diesel engine of a given horsepower with a propeller on it will produce the same thrust as similar power petrol (gas, steam) one. Nope. A Bell 47 helicopter rotor turning 300 RPM will produce more than 2450 pounds of static thrust with just 266 HP. The fact that it flies proves that. Diesels produce their power at low RPM's. A slower turning propeller that can absorb the same HP will produce more thrust. A ducted fan will produce still more thrust per HP at low airspeeds. Quote: It will, if turbo charged (another complication), produce sea level power up to a considerable height but I don't think that's a major problem for near sea level dwellers. All 2-stroke diesels are supercharged - else they won't run. Quote: As far as I can see what's driving the production of diesel engines in Europe is the low/no tax on diesel or jet fuel. How long will it take the fiscal authorities to latch on to that one I wonder? Europe has been using diesel fuel for a long time. Raising taxes on agricultural diesel will be a political hot potato. General Aviation fuel use is tiny compared to road use. Bill Daniels Back to top Mark James Boyd Guest Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? The only fuel that I am confident I will be able to find for aircraft in the coming decades is Jet fuel. If I purchased a certified aircraft for long term use, it would be powered by this, or be an experimental (where I could use whatever I want) In California, the abolishment of MTBE made all the autogas STCs of aircraft invalid (the new ethanol gas isn't covered by the STC). I don't have confidence that 100LL will be available in the near future. 80 has already almost disappeared from general aviation. Diesel? I'd be surprised to see that in 200 California airports within the next 10 years. In article <cl8qdc$knp$1 (AT) newshispeed (DOT) ch>, Stefan <stefan (AT) mus (DOT) _INVALID_.ch> wrote: Quote: Bill Daniels wrote: They feel their engine would make a near perfect tug engine. Surprize! :-) A rumor is ... So much for "practical information". Diesels make power at lower RPM's than a spark ignition engine so they can use larger, quieter, more efficient propellers. There isn't a requirement anywhere that propellers have to be direct driven. Actually, the only diesel flying today uses a gearbox. (Sorry for my unfair quoting, but I couldn't resist.) Stefan -- ------------+ Mark J. Boyd Back to top Christian Husvik Guest Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? Mark James Boyd wrote: Quote: The only fuel that I am confident I will be able to find for aircraft in the coming decades is Jet fuel.ral aviation. [...] Diesel? I'd be surprised to see that in 200 California airports within the next 10 years. Diesel engines in aircraft run on Jet A1. Christian 8-) Back to top Z Goudie Guest Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? At 21:48 21 October 2004, Bill Daniels wrote: Quote: Nope. A Bell 47 helicopter rotor turning 300 RPM will produce more than 2450 pounds of static thrust with just 266 HP. The fact that it flies proves that. Ah, so we're going to need very long undercarriage legs then? Back to top Bill Daniels Guest Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Aerotow with Diesel engine? "Z Goudie" <REMOVE_TO_REPLY.zgoudie (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: At 21:48 21 October 2004, Bill Daniels wrote: Nope. A Bell 47 helicopter rotor turning 300 RPM will produce more than 2450 pounds of static thrust with just 266 HP. The fact that it flies proves that. Ah, so we're going to need very long undercarriage legs then? It wouldn't be hard to design an airframe that could use a 3-4 meter prop. That would do a lot for low speed thrust and lower noise. 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