AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Advice on H301 Libelle 17m          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message ruediger Guest Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:00 pm    Post subject: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m As my Astir CS77 is totally damaged (The pilot, a friend of mine is ok, but the glider can't be repaired) i am looking for a "new" glider. I have the chance to buy a Libelle H301 17m. As I know that several H301 are flown in the US, i hope to get some advice from ras. For those who wonder: I can't ask these questions to the former owner, because the glider is sold by a dealer. I have no interest in competition, but i am looking for a glider which is easy to fly (not like the ASTIR). Is the H301 the same pleasure to fly as the H201 and H205, or a ASW19? Who can give advice on take-off and landing (I am going to read the manual but some times there are extra tricks). My eyperince is about 400h mostly with ASTIR CS, Club-Libelle 205, ASW19, TWIN I, K21. Thanks Ruediger (from Germany) Back to top JJ Sinclair Guest Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m H-301 in a nutshell. Great glider in its time, but she's going on 40, now. Great in the climb, but gives it up at 80 knots because the lower wing goes turbulent at that speed. Schuemann modification fixed that, but is/was expensive. Look for signs of water penetration into the balsawood core, bad news. Construction is about 30% lighter than modern sailplanes, just shake the tail to verify this observation. Landing gear / wheel / axle won't take too much abuse, as in going sidewise. Boom doesn't like to ground-loop much either and will snap if tried above 35 knots. Good ship in its day. Lots of fun even now, good handicap in the un-modified version, Schueman modification will cost you 5 points and isn't worth it without water, which isn't allowed in sports class. Came with a tail chute which never was needed and didn't work most of the time, anyway. Has flaps (+ or - 15 degrees) and dive brakes that are about half as effective as the spoilers on the H-201. Ventilation is provided by opening canopy ----- Yikes, never had the guts to try that. Most have been modified to bring in vent-air through the nose along with Pitot. Came with Pitot on stab and no total energy back there. Forward statics aren't the best, so aft statics should be added, as per Schuemann modifaciation instructions. Didn't come with a sliding window, either. Add one of those. Had automatic control hook-ups, except for ailerons. Has side trim which is a nuisance , the 201 trim is much nicer. Tow release is on a handle that rubs a spot on the inside of your left leg, 201 release is much better. She was a hummer in her day. My highly modified 301 would stay with the 20's. Carrying 25 gallons (only about 200 pounds over GW) I could out-climb them, but they would out-run me (40 gallons of agwa - only about 200 pounds over G/W) However I would catch them in the next thermal and out-climb them again. Did that for 400 miles, one day in the '72 nationals at Minden. Those were the days, Iron men in wooden ships. :>) JJ Sinclair Back to top One9er Guest Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m great report JJ. Those were the good old days. '72, is that El mirage, Minden, ? Mitch Herold Back to top Robertmudd1u Guest Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:55 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m 17 meter span H 301 Libelle?? Anyone know how many of these were made? I have never heard of a 17meter version. Was it a whole new wing? Or were removable tips installed? Robert Mudd Back to top JJ Sinclair Guest Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m Quote: great report JJ. Those were the good old days. '72, is that El mirage, Minden, ? Must have been having a senior moment, make that '82 at Minden or about that time period. I do remember the SSA's "Spring Surprise" of 1984 when the 15 meter Nats were held at Ephrata. About March '84 we were told that the Manufacturers Certificated Gross Weight (in the country of origin) would not be exceeded. Very bad news for me and my Libelle. After modifications and with old JJ stuffed in that tiny cockpit, It weighed 680 lbs.without any water. The GW of the H-301 was 660. JJ went shopping for a used 20 right before the Ephrata contest. That was a memebrable contest, the tasking was exactly the same as a very successful nationals they had run about 10 years earlier. Only problem was the weather wasn't the same. Lots of over-calls and that led to our "Competition Committee", with 2 competitors on it to advise the CD on not sending us out into all that black stuff, west of Ephrata and perhaps the CD should consider sending us over towards those puffy little clouds to the east. That contest also had 4 mid-airs which led to a firm rule not to allow more than 65 entrnts. Those were the days, have many fond memories of my 301. Turned out I should have stripped down the Libelle and taken it to Ephrata, because the weather was so lousy that we ended up flying dry on most days, anyway due to the weak conditions. She would have done well because climbing was her strong point. JJ Sinclair Back to top Pete Reinhart Guest Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m "JJ Sinclair" <jjglider (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote Quote: H-301 in a nutshell. Great glider in its time, but she's going on 40, now. ... Those were the days, Iron men in wooden ships. :>) JJ Sinclair As my sailboat racing lawyer friend says : "let us return once again to the days when men were iron, ships were wood, and women were property". When I tried that at my place, my wife reminded me who was paying for the glider. Cheers! Back to top goneill Guest Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m Here is a non PC version of the word wife : W ashing ,I roning,F ood ,E ntertainment this has been doing the rounds lately BUT Quote: When I tried that at my place, my wife reminded me who was paying for the glider. I think that hits the spot that hurts more. gary "Pete Reinhart" <pete (AT) prismnet (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "JJ Sinclair" <jjglider (AT) aol (DOT) com> wrote in message news:20040711091239.23098.00001642 (AT) mb-m07 (DOT) aol.com... H-301 in a nutshell. Great glider in its time, but she's going on 40, now. .. Those were the days, Iron men in wooden ships. :>) JJ Sinclair As my sailboat racing lawyer friend says : "let us return once again to the days when men were iron, ships were wood, and women were property". When I tried that at my place, my wife reminded me who was paying for the glider. Cheers! Back to top Kevin Christner Guest Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m [email]robertmudd1u (AT) aol (DOT) comn[/email]ojunk (Robertmudd1u) wrote in message news:<20040711215509.04880.00000948 (AT) mb-m24 (DOT) aol.com>... Quote: 17 meter span H 301 Libelle?? Anyone know how many of these were made? I have never heard of a 17meter version. Was it a whole new wing? Or were removable tips installed? Robert Mudd I think he has either confused the wingspan or is actually talking about a Glasflugel 401 Kestrel. Back to top F.L. Whiteley Guest Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m "Kevin Christner" <k8driver (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: robertmudd1u (AT) aol (DOT) comnojunk (Robertmudd1u) wrote in message news:<20040711215509.04880.00000948 (AT) mb-m24 (DOT) aol.com>... 17 meter span H 301 Libelle?? Anyone know how many of these were made? I have never heard of a 17meter version. Was it a whole new wing? Or were removable tips installed? Robert Mudd I think he has either confused the wingspan or is actually talking about a Glasflugel 401 Kestrel. There is most certainly a handicap listing for Libelle 17m on many Euro sites under club class ASW 19; DG 100; LS1f; Hornet; Std. Jantar, Std. Astir; SZD 59; Phöbus B3; Cirrus; Std. Cirrus 16m; Phöbus C1; D 37; SB 7; Elfe 17m, Std. Libelle 17m are given 100 Googling and translating a bit, it appears the 17m Libelle appeared in 1965, so likely a 301. Frank Whiteley Back to top Tim Mara Guest Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m the 301 was never produced as a 17 meter version....some might have been modified, though I know of none that were the Kestrel was 17 meter and I suspect that is what they were referring to..... there was also (one) 304 produced with extended span called the Glasflügel 402 but it was later converted to the "Falcon" by Hansjorg Streifeneder tim www.wingsandwheels.com "F.L. Whiteley" <greeley (AT) NO__SPAMgreeleynet (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "Kevin Christner" <k8driver (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote in message news:48d9a3ec.0407121700.d0e2b29 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com... [email]robertmudd1u (AT) aol (DOT) comn[/email]ojunk (Robertmudd1u) wrote in message news:<20040711215509.04880.00000948 (AT) mb-m24 (DOT) aol.com>... 17 meter span H 301 Libelle?? Anyone know how many of these were made? I have never heard of a 17meter version. Was it a whole new wing? Or were removable tips installed? Robert Mudd I think he has either confused the wingspan or is actually talking about a Glasflugel 401 Kestrel. There is most certainly a handicap listing for Libelle 17m on many Euro sites under club class ASW 19; DG 100; LS1f; Hornet; Std. Jantar, Std. Astir; SZD 59; Phöbus B3; Cirrus; Std. Cirrus 16m; Phöbus C1; D 37; SB 7; Elfe 17m, Std. Libelle 17m are given 100 Googling and translating a bit, it appears the 17m Libelle appeared in 1965, so likely a 301. Frank Whiteley Back to top Kizuno Guest Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on H301 Libelle 17m If you Google on "17m Libelle" this came up 7 years ago when I asked about this. Stephen Crabb of SA kindly replied that he believed there is a 17m Libelle in South Africa. Kemp Always a Glasflugel guy (but I'm getting to like Schleichers......) Back to top ruediger Guest Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:09 pm    Post subject: Sorry guys, the H301 Libelle 17m is a H201 I am sorry i made a mistake, but even so thanks for the answers. Yesterday I had the chance to have a look at the glider and it showed that the guy from the repairshop and me and misunderstood each other. He had talked about a flaped 17m Libelle, an´d I was talking about the H301 and neither him nor me noticed that we were talking about a H201 Standard Libelle with 17m Span and "Spreizklappen" (both modifikation from LTB Follmann) which are just an additional help for very short landings. I am going to take that glider home on monday, hoping to have some nice flights in the rest of the season. Any advice / pictures where to place an Ipaq in the Libelle. Thanks a lot Ruediger [email]ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de[/email] (ruediger) wrote in message news:<3a64e505.0407101000.235f5e61 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... Quote: As my Astir CS77 is totally damaged (The pilot, a friend of mine is ok, but the glider can't be repaired) i am looking for a "new" glider. I have the chance to buy a Libelle H301 17m. As I know that several H301 are flown in the US, i hope to get some advice from ras. For those who wonder: I can't ask these questions to the former owner, because the glider is sold by a dealer. I have no interest in competition, but i am looking for a glider which is easy to fly (not like the ASTIR). Is the H301 the same pleasure to fly as the H201 and H205, or a ASW19? Who can give advice on take-off and landing (I am going to read the manual but some times there are extra tricks). My eyperince is about 400h mostly with ASTIR CS, Club-Libelle 205, ASW19, TWIN I, K21. Thanks Ruediger (from Germany) Back to top F.L. Whiteley Guest Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject: Re: Sorry guys, the H301 Libelle 17m is a H201 Hey, how about some pictures of this 17m Libelle and mods once you have it rigged? Frank "ruediger" <ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de> wrote Quote: I am sorry i made a mistake, but even so thanks for the answers. Yesterday I had the chance to have a look at the glider and it showed that the guy from the repairshop and me and misunderstood each other. He had talked about a flaped 17m Libelle, an´d I was talking about the H301 and neither him nor me noticed that we were talking about a H201 Standard Libelle with 17m Span and "Spreizklappen" (both modifikation from LTB Follmann) which are just an additional help for very short landings. I am going to take that glider home on monday, hoping to have some nice flights in the rest of the season. Any advice / pictures where to place an Ipaq in the Libelle. Thanks a lot Ruediger [email]ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de[/email] (ruediger) wrote in message news:<3a64e505.0407101000.235f5e61 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... As my Astir CS77 is totally damaged (The pilot, a friend of mine is ok, but the glider can't be repaired) i am looking for a "new" glider. I have the chance to buy a Libelle H301 17m. As I know that several H301 are flown in the US, i hope to get some advice from ras. For those who wonder: I can't ask these questions to the former owner, because the glider is sold by a dealer. I have no interest in competition, but i am looking for a glider which is easy to fly (not like the ASTIR). Is the H301 the same pleasure to fly as the H201 and H205, or a ASW19? Who can give advice on take-off and landing (I am going to read the manual but some times there are extra tricks). My eyperince is about 400h mostly with ASTIR CS, Club-Libelle 205, ASW19, TWIN I, K21. Thanks Ruediger (from Germany) Back to top ruediger Guest Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Sorry guys, the H301 Libelle 17m is a H201 Hi Frank, you want me to sent them to your email adress? If you cant wait, have a look at http://home.pages.at/gliderpilot/gliding/libelle/tuning.htm there are nice pictures of the 17m Libelle and the "Spreizklappen". Rüdiger "F.L. Whiteley" <greeley (AT) NO__SPAMgreeleynet (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Hey, how about some pictures of this 17m Libelle and mods once you have it rigged? Frank "ruediger" <ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de> wrote in message news:3a64e505.0407150909.3312954 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com... I am sorry i made a mistake, but even so thanks for the answers. Yesterday I had the chance to have a look at the glider and it showed that the guy from the repairshop and me and misunderstood each other. He had talked about a flaped 17m Libelle, an´d I was talking about the H301 and neither him nor me noticed that we were talking about a H201 Standard Libelle with 17m Span and "Spreizklappen" (both modifikation from LTB Follmann) which are just an additional help for very short landings. I am going to take that glider home on monday, hoping to have some nice flights in the rest of the season. Any advice / pictures where to place an Ipaq in the Libelle. Thanks a lot Ruediger [email]ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de[/email] (ruediger) wrote in message news:<3a64e505.0407101000.235f5e61 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>... As my Astir CS77 is totally damaged (The pilot, a friend of mine is ok, but the glider can't be repaired) i am looking for a "new" glider. I have the chance to buy a Libelle H301 17m. As I know that several H301 are flown in the US, i hope to get some advice from ras. For those who wonder: I can't ask these questions to the former owner, because the glider is sold by a dealer. I have no interest in competition, but i am looking for a glider which is easy to fly (not like the ASTIR). Is the H301 the same pleasure to fly as the H201 and H205, or a ASW19? Who can give advice on take-off and landing (I am going to read the manual but some times there are extra tricks). My eyperince is about 400h mostly with ASTIR CS, Club-Libelle 205, ASW19, TWIN I, K21. Thanks Ruediger (from Germany) Back to top Wallace Berry Guest Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject: was: Sorry guys, the H301 Libelle 17m is a H201, now Libelle In article <3a64e505.0407160958.5415ae0a (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>, [email]ruedigerjanss (AT) yahoo (DOT) de[/email] (ruediger) wrote: Quote: http://home.pages.at/gliderpilot/gliding/libelle/tuning.htm Hey, didja see the picture of the Libelle with a hinged canopy? Looks like it is hinged but retains the great feature allowing the front of the canopy to be opened in flight for ventilation. The picture is small and low res but I think I can mostly make out how they did it. If anyone knows any more about this "klapphaube" for the Libelle, let me know. -- Take out the airplane for reply Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Sailplanes All times are GMT Page 1 of 1   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.