AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  Advice on buying a 152? Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Owning Airplanes View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message rajek Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:07 am    Post subject: Advice on buying a 152? I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even. I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun. Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. Thanks! Back to top Jay Honeck Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:14 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Quote: Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. A bit high for a 152, no? And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a lease-back arrangement. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Back to top rajek Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Jay Honeck wrote: Quote: Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. A bit high for a 152, no? And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a lease-back arrangement. Thanks for the reply. Is that high? I'll have to do some more research. I realize I'm not going to make any money. I'm mainly hoping to offset the majority of the maintenance and insurance. So for me the purpose of the leaseback arrangement is to make it more affordable to keep the plane, not so much to make a profit. Back to top Dude Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? I know one. He has had a plane at the same school for years, and always made money. I know of a few others who are certainly making money. And this is over the past 3 years with the doubling of insurance. Funny, he was hard to get to talk about it. Also, the other winners were hard to get hold of. Now the guys who don't make money are quick to talk about it, and how it was anyone's but there own fault. I listened to the guy that was making money, and even though I took a different approach, I am doing okay. I bought a new plane, and still have a nearly new plane. Could not have done it without the leaseback. I have the option to take the plane off the line, add extra's and refurb it to better than new. And I would still be ahead so long as I avoid recapture. Avoiding recapture is simple enough, so that's not a problem. I put all the tax rebates back into the bank loan and refinanced, and now my payments are in the used plane range. I will likely continue this year and trade up next year, and start over if they still have the bonus. It all depends on if the hours go up in the plane, or if I can sell my plane close to asking. If not, I can leave it at the school and hope the hours increase a bit, or I can take it out, fix it up, and have a plane I could not affford. If you can create a business use and get depreciation without a leaseback, then you may be better off. If you can afford the plane you want, then why bother? If the plane you want is out of your reach you can make it work. "Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck (AT) NOSPAMmchsi (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. A bit high for a 152, no? And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a lease-back arrangement. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" Back to top Robert A. Barker Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? "rajek" <rajek (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. < SNIP> Quote: Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. Without much more info. on condition,avionics,etc. I would tend to feel the price is high. My brother bought a new Piper Archer ll some years ago and had a leaseback with a local FBO.He was not happy with others flying the plane.Renters are not as careful as owners.He had to schedule time in his plane and could not use it if someone else had already scheduled it for that time.He did not offset enough of the expenses to make it worthwhile and gave up the leaseback after a while. YMMV A 152 is going to be used heavily by new students.They do not always land softly.:-) I bought a 1966 150 in excellent condition for $18,000 and have been a happy camper. Bob Barker N8749S Quote: I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. Thanks! Back to top Carl Orton Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Right now, you have insufficient information to make that decision. $28K seems high, compared to the fleet average of 152's. Condition and equipment are everything in the plane market. 600 hrs on the engine isn't bad, but it could be better. How many airframe hours? Most 152's have much higher hours than 150's do, because most were purchased in the go-go days of flight training in the late 70's. You mentioned nothing of the avionics. Granted, you can't stuff too much in a 152, but if you have brand-new Bendix KX 155's in it, with a KLN 94 IFR certified GPS or a Garmin 430, and you're beginning to total up some bigger bucks. You need to see what's out there. Check www.aso.com or www.controller.com to see the general price ranges for your year and number of hours and equipment. If you're getting serious, get an online subscription to Trade A Plane. It's relatively cheap compared to the paper copies. On their website (with subscription) they have a very good appraisal tool that lets you spec your exact plane's equipment, airframe, paint, and interior condition. Carl "rajek" <rajek (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote Quote: I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even. I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun. Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. Thanks! Back to top Jay Honeck Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Quote: Thanks for the reply. Is that high? I'll have to do some more research. Good answer. Your best bet is Trade-a-plane on-line. Watch the ads, do your homework. I think you'll find many, many 152s for less than $28K. Check the panel carefully -- the price difference may be found there. At your level of experience this won't be easy -- avionics can be a real can of worms. Your best bet is to ask a trusted, experienced pilot friend for help. Given that many new pilots like yourself don't have mentors (a real, serious problem in aviation, by the way), you may be left to fend for yourself. If this is the case, your workload just doubled or tripled. Here's what you should do: Find out what avionics are in the plane, and post your results here -- you'll find a wealth of knowledge and experience here, and we'll be able to help you assess the panel. (For a real assessment of condition, you'll need an avionics tech of course -- but we can get you in the ballpark.) Find out total time on the airframe in addition to engine time. Ask about damage history -- many trainers have some. Don't just look at this single aircraft -- 152s are literally everywhere. Make friends with a mechanic that other guys on the field recommend -- this person will be your life-line, and the guy who ultimately does your pre-buy inspection. Do NOT buy this plane without a pre-buy inspection, performed by someone other than the current owner's A&P. Come here often and ask questions -- we all began where you are today, and many of us learned some hard, expensive, and probably unnecessary lessons along the way. Good luck! -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" "rajek" <rajek (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote Quote: Jay Honeck wrote: Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. A bit high for a 152, no? And, BTW: In ten years I have not met a person who made money in a lease-back arrangement. I realize I'm not going to make any money. I'm mainly hoping to offset the majority of the maintenance and insurance. So for me the purpose of the leaseback arrangement is to make it more affordable to keep the plane, not so much to make a profit. Back to top rajek Guest Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Wow, thanks a lot for the advice and suggestions. It sounds as though a leaseback is risky but it can work OK in the right circumstances. ("Work" defined as substantially offsetting expenses, not necessarily making a profit.) The club owner did talk with me about some of the factors that affect the plane's earnings -- season, upgrades, cosmetics and so on. I'll do some more research and post again when I have more information. Thanks! Back to top tony roberts Guest Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:02 am    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Leaving alone the price (which seems high) ask why the club will lease off you. Interest rates are very low. They could borrow cheap and buy it. Could it be that leaving you to carry the risk, the maintenance, the abuse, the rebuilds, the AD's and the whatever else you can thik of is a better deal for them? You bet it is! Think about it. They want an aircraft, to put a student in, and let that student pound it into the runway over and over and over until such time as they learn to land it. (And once they do learn to land it, that student will transition to THEIR aircraft, and a new one will start over in yours. Add to that that they won't have a clue how to lean it - Welcome to the stuck valve club/melted cylinder club, and they look around and see you, with your hand up, begging them to use your airplane to do it all in. Meanwhile, we have the seller telling you that his aircraft is worth a whole lot more than comparable models, and is using this arrangement to justify it as an income stream. I guess the best advice that I can give you is turn around and walk. When you find the plane that is right for you, you won't even consider allowing that kind of abuse. HTH Tony -- [email]Indiacharlieecho (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] Tony Roberts PP-ASEL VFR OTT Night Almost Instrument Cessna 172H C-GICE In article <40ca88f2$0$19877$2c56edd9 (AT) news (DOT) cablerocket.com>, rajek <rajek (AT) nospam (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even. I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun. Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. Thanks! Back to top Dave S Guest Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Oh yea.. Be VERY wary/cautious of a club, school or operator that encourages YOU to buy a plane for the purpose of them leasing it back from you, particularly if they also perform the maintenance in-house and bill it to you. Dave rajek wrote: Quote: Wow, thanks a lot for the advice and suggestions. It sounds as though a leaseback is risky but it can work OK in the right circumstances. ("Work" defined as substantially offsetting expenses, not necessarily making a profit.) The club owner did talk with me about some of the factors that affect the plane's earnings -- season, upgrades, cosmetics and so on. I'll do some more research and post again when I have more information. Thanks! Back to top Dave Butler Guest Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? rajek wrote: Quote: I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even. I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun. Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. If you're sure 152 is the model you want, surf over to http://www.aeroprice.com/. For $20 or so you can get a valuation of the particular plane you are looking at, or for $50 or so you can get their software for evaluating as many instances as you like of a particular model (e.g. 152). The expense is trivial compared to the value of the knowledge. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. Back to top Dave Butler Guest Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Dave S wrote: Quote: Oh yea.. Be VERY wary/cautious of a club, school or operator that encourages YOU to buy a plane for the purpose of them leasing it back from you, particularly if they also perform the maintenance in-house and bill it to you. Good point. I'm one of those who has had a leaseback and was satisfied with the experience. I may or may not have made a little money, it was close. The OP said he was OK with just having the lease cover much of the expense and not necessarily making a profit, which I think is realistic... but Dave S's advice is good. I'd have my lease contract make *me* responsible for providing an airworthy aircraft, so I can shop around for maintenance services. Giving the lessee free rein to do maintenance as required and bill you for it is like writing a blank check. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. Back to top TTA Cherokee Driver Guest Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? Dude wrote: Quote: And I would still be ahead so long as I avoid recapture. Avoiding recapture is simple enough, so that's not a problem. Do tell. How do you avoid recapture? (besides selling it for less than the depreciated basis, of course). I've always looked at all these "accelerated depreciation" posts and thought "recapture is going to kill them." I would really like to know your trick for avoiding it. Back to top Peter Clark Guest Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:54:39 -0400, TTA Cherokee Driver <ttacherokeedriver (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote: Quote: Do tell. How do you avoid recapture? (besides selling it for less than the depreciated basis, of course). I've always looked at all these "accelerated depreciation" posts and thought "recapture is going to kill them." I would really like to know your trick for avoiding it. Like-kind exchange. Upgrade to a newer/bigger aircraft. The way I understand it, it boils down to owning an aircraft for the rest of your life and the estate has to account for/pay back any recapture. Back to top Patrick Guest Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on buying a 152? I just bought an IFR certified C152 1979 model for 21,500. Around 1000 on a 2400 engine. Immaculate and in VERY good condition. It has been hangared for the last 19 years and flies extremely well. I too was offered the chance to do a lease back with the flight school locally, but DON'T DO IT unless you want to come out to fly and find the thing bent, abused and in shoddy condition. Spend the money on the plane, learn to fly, then sell it and move up. You can find one that you like for 20 to 25 K easily and you'll be much happier. The lease back options leave you open for all kinds of expenses and you have to pay insurance, etc. Be careful out there. A new pilot and 152 owner. Patrick Wilson www.w4pw.org 68007 Dave Butler <flymSH20j (AT) hotIRmail (DOT) Tcom> wrote Quote: rajek wrote: I'm considering buying a 1978 Cessna 152 that the owner is leasing to a flying club. I'd continue to lease it to the club and learn to fly in it. (I have 3 1/2 hours now.) I'd hope that plane to earn enough money to cover most of its maintenance and insurance, including a new engine in a few years. I met with the owner of the club this afternoon and we went over some numbers. The plane and the club's other 152 have done a good job of earning their keep so far. I could accept not quite breaking even. I understand that renting is cheaper but I'm really excited about the idea of owning a plane. I also really like that particular model. I flew one on my last lesson and it was a lot of fun. Asking price is $28,000. The engine has about 600 hours since the last overhaul. I'd also appreciate any comments or advice. If you're sure 152 is the model you want, surf over to http://www.aeroprice.com/. For $20 or so you can get a valuation of the particular plane you are looking at, or for $50 or so you can get their software for evaluating as many instances as you like of a particular model (e.g. 152). The expense is trivial compared to the value of the knowledge. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. 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