AirTalk.org

snoopy_@excite.com · Guest

Does anyone have advice on how to make those perfect "greased"
landings? I have been trying to think on how to make my landings extra
nice, and extra soft.
In some ways I think a lower roundout would help, which would result
in a the plane howevering at just over 1 ft of the runway, which would
make for a lower drop in the flare.
I also was thinking of given a little spurt of speed to ease it in
during the flare.
I noticed that sometimes my instructor lands with just a little
juice, rather than dead idle.
There must be some techniques that guys have developed to help make
nice landings. Once I felt I was on the ground and the instructor
yanked the yoke back to exagerate the flare for me and he pulled me
right off the runway again...... I swear I was down. :-)

Bob Gardner · Guest

A greased landing is proof of too much airspeed. Maybe not a lot too much,
but still too much. Your goal in landing is to touch down with minimum
kinetic energy, which (oversimplified) is airspeed squared. Any excess
energy must be bled off with rolling friction, brakes, and aerodynamic drag.
Every once in awhile, the end of the runway comes before the energy has
reached that irreducible minimum...this is known as "running off the end of
the runway." Good landings are slow landings...forget about greasers. Of
course, wind conditions may call for excess airspeed, but then it is no
longer a normal landing.

Bob Gardner

<snoopy_ (AT) excite (DOT) com> wrote

Dick · Guest

practice

<snoopy_ (AT) excite (DOT) com> wrote

three-eight-hotel · Guest

"Greasers" come when you least expect them, and not quite as often as
you would hope for (at least in my experience).

I'm far from an expert, but learning to fly precisely will greatly
improve the number of landings you will be satisfied with! Maintaining
precise heading, altitude and airspeed during straight and level, then
transferring that attention to detail to your landings will do wonders!
Nail your airspeed, decent rate and headings on your downwind, base
and final and 9 times out of 10 you will end up with a landing you can
be happy with.

There are a lot of factors mother nature throws into the mix that can
affect your landings, but flying the airplane precisely is the only
thing "you" have control of.

Again, I'm not an expert, but I'm happy with a landing where my
passengers turn to me and say, "nice landing", even though I know it
was far from a "greaser". Every once in a while, when I least expect
it I get that ever so elusive greaser!

I'm not sure how far along you are in your training, but consider an
instrument rating when you are done! Learning to fly the plane
precisely will make you an "all-around" better pilot!

Good luck and best regards,
Todd

three-eight-hotel · Guest

I forgot to mention that I completely agree with Bob! "Good landings
are slow landings"

I don't know what the definition of a "greaser" actually is, but my
consideration of a greaser is when the plane has "completely" stopped
flying (slow landing) at a foot or so above the runway, where it feels
like the pavement grabs the tires, rather than the tires dropping to
the pavement.

Trying to put the plane on the ground, when it hasn't finished flying
can be a VERY bad thing. I learned through these very newsgroups that
porpoising is due to exessive airspeed upon landing. And, I learned it
after a very scarey porpoising experience!

"Good landings are slow landing"!

Sorry! I meant to agree with Bob in my original post!

tony roberts · Guest

Greasers mean zip - but if you are having trouble with landings, and you
want to improve quickly, here is what I suggest:

Lose the flaps - keep 1200 - 1500 rpm on - do that for your next 30
landings.
Too high - slip. Too low - add power but learn why so you don't repeat
it.

With 1500 rpm and no flaps you should be landing on the numbers (I
prefer the 1000 ft markers) every time. When you start using flaps
again it will be sooo much easier.

HTH

Tony

In article <1124751434.700005.177330 (AT) g47g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
[email]snoopy_ (AT) excite (DOT) com[/email] wrote:

snoopy_@excite.com · Guest

Tony,
That's interesting, why do you recommend praticing landings without
flaps? I've done it a few times, but I assumed that this was a way
for my instructor to prove to me that I could do it so I wouldn't be
overly worried if I had a mechanical problem with flaps. They don't
seem any more difficult than with flaps, I just need to play with my
pitch and throttle to bleed off the airspeed for my approach.

Usually I end up hovering about 10 feet above the ground, then as the
plane starts to sink I slowly pull the yoke back to flare, but
sometimes I feel the plane starting to comeback up and I have to jokey
the yoke a little bit forward to spill the lift and then start to pull
the yoke back again. I was thinking that if I tried to hover only a
foot or two above the runway I had a better chance of a nice soft
landing. Also, I usually land with the throttle at idel, but just
leaving in the 1/4 inch of throttle allows for nicer landings too. I
assume that is cause you glide to the asphalt rather than drop.

Once I get passed the supervised solos, and can practice alon in
landings, I think I will gain a better feel/touch for landings and
feathering in.

P.S. My pathectic landings make me think back to one day when I was in
the Navy, we didn't have anything to do so we sat on the tarmac with
big white posterboard signs and graded the pilot's landings. It was in
Bermuda and there was a lot of commercial traffic as well. Most of the
commercial guys where good, and they laughed at us. Of coarse the
AirForce guys were good as well, so we got thumbs up from them, but the
Navy guys looked like wounded birds crashing to the deck ( I guess they
were used to carrier landings and were too used to the "wire" to save
them). Man were those navy pilots pissed with their grades. I
laughed then, but now I feel just a little guilty.... :-)

three-eight-hotel · Guest

H.P. · Guest

As a student, I'd never be caught using the no-flaps "Thurman Munson"
landing maneuver! Not without an instructor on board.

"tony roberts" <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) ca> wrote

tony roberts · Guest

Hi HP
I have no idea at all what a no-flaps "Thurman Munson"
landing maneuver is. Is it some kind of in-joke?

Here is what I do know.

Without an instructor next to you, you will need to land crosswind, high
headwind, tailwind - all kinds of landings where you will not use flaps.
You will need to be VERY proficient in that style of landing if you want
to be a safe pilot - because that type of landing usually only becomes
necessary after you have taken off! - and then it is too late to go find
an instructor -
I was faced with 20 gusting 27 at 90 degreees to the runway just last
night - don't even think of flying that with flaps!

And remember - a lot of aircraft flying today don't even have flaps - so
I am not suggesting anything radical here.

So what I am suggesting is get used to landing no flaps. So you will
land a few knots faster - BUT - you will use a shallower approach - and
that approach, combined with some power makes it much easier to get a
fairly consistent, fairly good landing. We're not talking perfection -
we're talking about a fairly good landing - consistently.
That is what you learn and you keep doing it until you become consistent.
You just learned a whole lot that may save your butt when the weather
turns crappy. BUT - you can now start adding flaps - slowly - do
several landings at 10 degrees - then do several more at 20 degrees etc.
By the time you get back to 30 or 40 degrees you will be much smoother
than you used to be - so you are landing much better with flaps - and
you also have developed the skills needed to land no flaps when the
weather dictates.

That is the point that I was making!

Tony

[email]ndiacharlieecho (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email]
Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article <CrcPe.437$MN5.75 (AT) newssvr25 (DOT) news.prodigy.net>,
"H.P." <_&_spamno (AT) email (DOT) com> wrote:

cjcampbell · Guest

I am not as doctrinaire as some others about always landing at the
slowest possible speed. There are times when you may want to land at a
higher speed and I think you should be able to use every tool in the
box. Carrying a little extra speed can help you to settle more gently,
but be sure that runway length and other conditions are appropriate for
it.

It is easy when learning to land at a big airport with a long runway to
get a little lazy and always carry too much speed into the landing just
so you can get a "greaser" every time. Don't worry about how soft your
landings are right now (short of damaging the airplane, of course).
Just make sure you have the assigned airspeed and flare right.

Adding power is not always adding "a little spurt of speed." Sometimes
it slows you down. Think about the lessons you should have learned in
practicing slow flight, where it should have been demonstrated how your
airspeed drops when you add power.

If landings are going badly, never practice more than three in a row.
All you do is end up reinforcing bad habits. Instead, do three
landings, then have your instructor demonstrate one so you can refresh
the "picture." It is sometimes helpful when your instructor is landing
to look at the wheels and then out the front so you can get a clearer
idea of how high you really are when you are flying the plane.

If your landings are really rough, you are probably dropping the plane
on its nose. This will invariably cause the plane to bounce. This is
dangerous. Not only will it damage the nose gear and possibly the
propeller and engine, but it can cause you to lose control of the
aircraft. It is possible to bounce clear over onto the ramp into some
parked airplanes, or worse.

There are two reasons I have noticed people dropping the plane on its
nose. One is people who don't flare. You have to get that nose high
enough to keep the nose gear from hitting first. The other reason is
when you get too slow on final approach and stall when you flare. This
will also bring the nose down hard. It is especially bad if, like many
student pilots, you have a tendency to flare too high ("fear of runway"
syndrome). These problems become really severe with extremely
nose-heavy aircraft, such as the larger Cessa singles (and all Cessna
singles are nose heavy anyway).

OTOH if you are landing too hard but landing on the main gear first and
you are at the proper airspeed, you probably began the flare a little
too high. The flare should reduce your rate of descent at first, but
after that the rate of descent increases. You want to land while the
flare is reducing your rate of descent. Flare too high, and your rate
of descent will be increasing when you touch down. You can reduce your
rate of descent in the flare by adding power, but you should not do
this until you have first mastered the power off landing.

I also have experimented with teaching students to first land without
flaps. Tony Roberts has a good point on that, and I will let him argue
the benefits of that method. Personally, however, I have found most
students learn more quickly if you let them use flaps.

H.P. · Guest

Excerpt from a NY Daily News article:

"...This is what happens to N15NY. The plane keeps sinking. Munson never
puts the flaps down, which would give the plane additional lift. The NTSB
report would state that Munson was flying an estimated 20 knots too slow for
a no-flaps-down landing (about 93 KIAS), creating an excessive sink rate.
"The added drag of the gear, the reduced power and the reduced lift
available without flaps extended placed the aircraft in a dangerous
situation," the report would state. The pilot failed "to recognize the need
for, and to take action to maintain, sufficient air speed to prevent a stall
during an attempted landing...."

"tony roberts" <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) ca> wrote

Mark Hansen · Guest

On 8/25/2005 04:56, H.P. wrote:

FlyingFin · Guest

Hear hear for the statement

"I would be careful about putting too much weight into news media
articles of plane crashes - they tend to be driven by fear more than
facts."....

and I would go one further by saying most newspapers assign plane
incident reporting to non pilots who don't have the slightest clue
about what a "stall" is (they still think it has something to do with
the engine quitting from the model "T" days when engines stalled. Be a
good consumer of the news and when you find an article about flying
that has the information wrong, write to the editor and offer your
services. Amazing how often they will retract wrong stuff too!

As to the topic: Landings ...

Airspeed control, in the pattern, but more important ON FINAL is the
key to consistently smooth landings at minimum touchdown speed on the
numbers. Practice SLOW FLIGHT with full flaps at altitude. Practice
aborted landings so transition from full flaps to full power without a
drop in altitude when you reduce flaps is possible. Whatever you are
flying, find the right approach speed for final (with or without flaps,
doesn't matter you should do both so you know how) and nail that speed
to the airspeed indicator on final. Once you control speed, power on
or power off, THEN you can use the throttle to get on the glide path,
depending on wind.

I'm old school, and my teachers without exception ALWAYS insisted on
having enough altitude in the pattern to make the field if power
failed. That doesn't seem to be the current trend, and instructors
teach students to drag the plane to the airport with 1700 rpm and long
approaches. Listen to your instructor, since I am not an instructor,
just a pilot with 35 years experience. Ask about practicing power off
(full idle for safety) pinpoint landings from midfield downwind and no
added power unless needed for safety.

Most of all, HAVE FUN. Practice is the key, and you can't substitute
those hours of T&G's for anything.

Bob

Andrew Gideon · Guest

Playing with glassy water landings - controlling descent with power only
once the proper pitch attitude is achieved - is another way to improve
one's landing control.

After getting these worked out, I became far more comfortable about landing
a 182 power-off because I'd a better feel for the entire landing process.

[It likely also broke me of any habits I was using in landing instead of
actually responding to the environment.]

- Andrew