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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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 Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:58 pm Post subject: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421), pu |
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I recently got back into flying after a 12 year layoff. I am current,
and flying high-performance singles (182). I have around 80 hours in
high-performance planes, including retracts. I am currently building
time to improve my skills and getting ready to take the next step.
I am finally in a financial position to not only be able to afford to
fly, but to own an aircraft. I've been doing research on the various
costs, fixed and hourly, and I will not buy an airplane unless I am
sure I can:
1. afford to fly it regularly
2. have sufficent income to handle unexpected expenses
3. have funds for initial and recurrent training
4. can put 50-100 hours of dual in type
I am trying to map out how I want to proceed going to the next step. I
want to get my instrument rating, and possibly multi (which, of course
I'd do, if I went for a twin).
So, here is my dilema. I've pretty much settled on a T210 or a
400-series Cessna. I'd prefer the twin, because I'd like to replace
most or all of my airline travel. I want to be able to take 4-6 people
on medium to long trips. I'm based on the west coast, in California.
We seldom have seriously bad weather here, and if I travel east, I
would allow plenty of time to divert or wait out bad weather.
One reason I'd prefer a twin is that certain areas of California can
have persistant fog, with below-IFR ceilings, that I occasionally need
to overfly. If you lose a single engine, an emergency landing in those
conditions have a low chance of success. To get use out of my plane, I
would like to be able to fly over areas with those conditions. A twin
would almost certainly get you to a clear weather airport.
My total time is about 300 hours. Yes, I know, low time. If I went for
either plane, I would do all my training in that plane. That would
mean 50-100 hours of dual. When I started my refresher (extended BFR),
I told the instructor I was in no hurry, and we'd keep going until we
were both satisfied. If I buy either plane, I would do the same. No
hurry with time, no money constraints on training. I'd tell the
instructor I want to go through training slowly and do everything over
and over until there is no doubt I'm ready for the next thing. I would
also plan several dual-instruction, cross-country, point to point
flights (hopefully in actual IFR) to gain practical experience in the
system and with my plane.
As for insurance, I'd look for a pilot with lots of hours in type to
add as first insured. The best case would be to find a CFII, MEI that
would want time in type, could train me in my plane until I'm ready
and have enough time in type, and could use my plane part of the time.
So, the questions are:
1. are there any schools that specialize in 414/421 initial and
recurrant training?
2. any advice on how to find local instructors that have experience in
type?
3. if anyone has any advice on buying and training in T210s and 400
series, your advice would be welcome
Again, I want to emphasize that I would do EXTENSIVE training,
including extended training and dual instruction flights, before I'd
consider myself worthy of acting as PIC. I realize that a 400 series
Cessna is a very complex aircraft, and I would do everything necessary
to become proficient in my aircraft. I take flying and training very
seriously.
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kontiki
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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If you can afford it, and are willing to put in the time and effort
to do all of the things you elaborated on then why the hell not?
My only problem with your post is that it seems your reasoning
for wanting a twin is to help you avoid any possibility of getting
into any sort of weather. That seems sort of counter productive
in that either the 210 or the twins are very adept at dealing
with weather given a competent pilot and a some wise flight planning.
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Mike Murdock
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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I suspect your biggest hurdle will be insurance. You'll want to work with a
good broker who has experience with transitioning pilots into cabin-class
twins, before you buy a plane. While there are only a handful of
underwriters, a good broker can present your case so that you will get
insurance, where another broker might just submit your flight times and then
give you the "everybody declined" news.
As to flying "4 - 6 people on medium to long trips," you might want to work
some weight and balance and fuel consumption scenarios for your intended
aircraft. You can buy POHs at http://www.esscoaircraft.com/.
I'd also recommend that you visit Jerry Temple's web site:
http://www.jtatwins.com. Jerry is an airplane broker specializing in twin
Cessnas. I bought a T310R through him, and can vouch for his honesty and
integrity. His web site has a lot of information about the purchase
process.
There is also a wealth of information available through the "Twin Cessna
Flyer", a type organization. Their web site is http://www.twincessna.org/
Best of luck on your adventure.
-Mike
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:52:21 GMT, kontiki <kontiki (AT) frontiernet (DOT) net>
wrote:
| Quote: | If you can afford it, and are willing to put in the time and effort
to do all of the things you elaborated on then why the hell not?
My only problem with your post is that it seems your reasoning
for wanting a twin is to help you avoid any possibility of getting
into any sort of weather. That seems sort of counter productive
in that either the 210 or the twins are very adept at dealing
with weather given a competent pilot and a some wise flight planning.
|
Maybe I didn't word that correctly. One rationale for wanting a twin
over a single is that I'd like to be able to fly *over* areas that are
below IFR minimums and over mountains without the worry that if I lose
my one engine, that I'd have to make an emergency landing with poor
odds of survival. There are other reasons for wanting a twin, but
assuming I keep up with emergency engine out procedure reviews, I'd
like the piece of mind knowing I can continue into more favorable
conditions with the remaining engine.
Some examples:
1. California's Central Valley can get persistant fog that lasts for
days, has ceilings of 100ft AGL or less, and quarter to half mile
visibility. I occasionally overfly those conditions from the bay area
to the Sierra mountains or southern Cal, and I'm concerned that losing
an engine over that kind of muck is pretty much a death sentence.
2. I like to fly to Tahoe, Truckee and Reno. I'd like the piece of
mind that an engine loss won't leave me over terrain that is
impossible to land on safely.
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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Excellent info. Thanks!
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 18:55:39 -0600, "Mike Murdock" <mike (AT) nospam (DOT) net>
wrote:
| Quote: | I suspect your biggest hurdle will be insurance. You'll want to work with a
good broker who has experience with transitioning pilots into cabin-class
twins, before you buy a plane. While there are only a handful of
underwriters, a good broker can present your case so that you will get
insurance, where another broker might just submit your flight times and then
give you the "everybody declined" news.
As to flying "4 - 6 people on medium to long trips," you might want to work
some weight and balance and fuel consumption scenarios for your intended
aircraft. You can buy POHs at http://www.esscoaircraft.com/.
I'd also recommend that you visit Jerry Temple's web site:
http://www.jtatwins.com. Jerry is an airplane broker specializing in twin
Cessnas. I bought a T310R through him, and can vouch for his honesty and
integrity. His web site has a lot of information about the purchase
process.
There is also a wealth of information available through the "Twin Cessna
Flyer", a type organization. Their web site is http://www.twincessna.org/
Best of luck on your adventure.
-Mike
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BTIZ
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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engine loss on most twins.. in the Reno/Tahoe area will NOT keep you out of
trouble..
The single engine service altitude on some twins is well below that mountain
pass.
BT
<fiero (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: | On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 00:52:21 GMT, kontiki
wrote:
snip
2. I like to fly to Tahoe, Truckee and Reno. I'd like the piece of
mind that an engine loss won't leave me over terrain that is
impossible to land on safely.
snip |
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Matt Whiting
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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BTIZ wrote:
| Quote: | engine loss on most twins.. in the Reno/Tahoe area will NOT keep you out of
trouble..
The single engine service altitude on some twins is well below that mountain
pass.
|
True, but a twin that loses an engine above the single engine service
doesn't plummet instantly to that altitude. Depending on how long the
pass is, a twin that is flying well above the SESC could transit the
pass long before the slow descent has dropped it to the SESC.
Matt
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john smith
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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What is the status of the proposed AD on twin-cessnas?
These aircraft are/were going cheap because of the cost to comply with
the AD.
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 03:44:39 GMT, john smith <jsmith (AT) net (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | What is the status of the proposed AD on twin-cessnas?
These aircraft are/were going cheap because of the cost to comply with
the AD.
|
I've been reading that the FAA delayed or cancelled it. I'm not sure
if it applies to the 421, but most of the others were covered (unless
the 421 wasn't part of it in the first place).
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:31:09 -0500, Matt Whiting
<whiting (AT) chilitech (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | BTIZ wrote:
engine loss on most twins.. in the Reno/Tahoe area will NOT keep you out of
trouble..
The single engine service altitude on some twins is well below that mountain
pass.
True, but a twin that loses an engine above the single engine service
doesn't plummet instantly to that altitude. Depending on how long the
pass is, a twin that is flying well above the SESC could transit the
pass long before the slow descent has dropped it to the SESC.
|
You don't need to be able to cruise all the way out of the mountains.
You just need to stay aloft long enough not to crash into a mountain
or canyon.
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 19:09:04 -0800, "BTIZ" <btiznospm2 (AT) cox (DOT) nospm.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | engine loss on most twins.. in the Reno/Tahoe area will NOT keep you out of
trouble..
|
On departure, maybe not. I'm thinking more at cruise or if you've
already got some altitude. Engine failures on departure are dangerous
no matter what you are flying. There is no way to eliminate all risk,
I just hope to minimize risk as much as possible.
| Quote: |
The single engine service altitude on some twins is well below that mountain
pass.
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This is something I will have to investigate with any aircraft I will
consider buying.
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Mike Rapoport
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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<fiero (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote
| Quote: | I recently got back into flying after a 12 year layoff. I am current,
and flying high-performance singles (182). I have around 80 hours in
high-performance planes, including retracts. I am currently building
time to improve my skills and getting ready to take the next step.
I am finally in a financial position to not only be able to afford to
fly, but to own an aircraft. I've been doing research on the various
costs, fixed and hourly, and I will not buy an airplane unless I am
sure I can:
1. afford to fly it regularly
2. have sufficent income to handle unexpected expenses
3. have funds for initial and recurrent training
4. can put 50-100 hours of dual in type
I am trying to map out how I want to proceed going to the next step. I
want to get my instrument rating, and possibly multi (which, of course
I'd do, if I went for a twin).
So, here is my dilema. I've pretty much settled on a T210 or a
400-series Cessna. I'd prefer the twin, because I'd like to replace
most or all of my airline travel. I want to be able to take 4-6 people
on medium to long trips. I'm based on the west coast, in California.
We seldom have seriously bad weather here, and if I travel east, I
would allow plenty of time to divert or wait out bad weather.
One reason I'd prefer a twin is that certain areas of California can
have persistant fog, with below-IFR ceilings, that I occasionally need
to overfly. If you lose a single engine, an emergency landing in those
conditions have a low chance of success. To get use out of my plane, I
would like to be able to fly over areas with those conditions. A twin
would almost certainly get you to a clear weather airport.
My total time is about 300 hours. Yes, I know, low time. If I went for
either plane, I would do all my training in that plane. That would
mean 50-100 hours of dual. When I started my refresher (extended BFR),
I told the instructor I was in no hurry, and we'd keep going until we
were both satisfied. If I buy either plane, I would do the same. No
hurry with time, no money constraints on training. I'd tell the
instructor I want to go through training slowly and do everything over
and over until there is no doubt I'm ready for the next thing. I would
also plan several dual-instruction, cross-country, point to point
flights (hopefully in actual IFR) to gain practical experience in the
system and with my plane.
As for insurance, I'd look for a pilot with lots of hours in type to
add as first insured. The best case would be to find a CFII, MEI that
would want time in type, could train me in my plane until I'm ready
and have enough time in type, and could use my plane part of the time.
So, the questions are:
1. are there any schools that specialize in 414/421 initial and
recurrant training?
2. any advice on how to find local instructors that have experience in
type?
3. if anyone has any advice on buying and training in T210s and 400
series, your advice would be welcome
Again, I want to emphasize that I would do EXTENSIVE training,
including extended training and dual instruction flights, before I'd
consider myself worthy of acting as PIC. I realize that a 400 series
Cessna is a very complex aircraft, and I would do everything necessary
to become proficient in my aircraft. I take flying and training very
seriously.
|
Have you considered not insuring the hull? Flight Safety and Simcom would
be the preferred places to get trained.
Mike
MU-2
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:20:03 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
<rapoportnospam (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: |
Have you considered not insuring the hull? Flight Safety and Simcom would
be the preferred places to get trained.
|
So the idea would be that if I wrecked it, I'd take the loss, not the
insurance company? Would that make a significant difference in price
and my "insurability"?
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Ben Jackson
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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In article <1104514642.0540a981e3e373fdfec3f46fbafc3ee2@teranews>,
<fiero (AT) pacbell (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:20:03 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
[email]rapoportnospam (AT) earthlink (DOT) net[/email]> wrote:
Have you considered not insuring the hull?
So the idea would be that if I wrecked it, I'd take the loss, not the
insurance company?
|
You'd get liability coverage so that if you crashed it INTO something
thei insurance company would cover what you hit. You'd probably get
"not in motion" hull coverage so if the hangar collapsed you'd be covered.
You'd skip the "in motion" hull coverage (which is the bulk of the
premium).
Then, if you crashed, you'd have to pay to repair it or decide it's not
repairable and sell the aircraft for salvage. In any survivable accident
the salvage value is likely to be pretty high.
--
Ben Jackson
<ben (AT) ben (DOT) com>
http://www.ben.com/
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fiero@pacbell.net
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Advice and experts with 400 series Cessnas (414 and 421) |
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| Quote: | You'd get liability coverage so that if you crashed it INTO something
thei insurance company would cover what you hit. You'd probably get
"not in motion" hull coverage so if the hangar collapsed you'd be covered.
You'd skip the "in motion" hull coverage (which is the bulk of the
premium).
Then, if you crashed, you'd have to pay to repair it or decide it's not
repairable and sell the aircraft for salvage. In any survivable accident
the salvage value is likely to be pretty high.
|
Someone was telling me that the hull portion was the least portion of
the premium. I'm guessing it is the liability, i.e., I crash, kill
everyone on board, their families sue, damage/casualties on the
ground, etc.
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