AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  ADS vs ADSB Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Planes, gliders and flying in Australia View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Brian May Guest Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: ADS vs ADSB Hello, Is ADS related to ADSB? I get the impression ADS isn't updated as frequently as ADSB; according to [1] the controller "conducted a single interrogation (one shot) of the aircraft's automatic dependant surveillance (ADS) system", and "Automatic Dependant Surveillance was a system dependant on a datalink and a series of reporting `contracts' (a rate of reporting) established between an aircraft and a ground system". My understanding of ADSB is that it is automatically updated every 5 seconds[2], hence "single interrogations" aren't required. Reference: [1] <URL:http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=388> [2] <URL:http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/projects/adsb/adsbtracks.asp> -- Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> Back to top Mil80C Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote Quote: Hello, Is ADS related to ADSB? I get the impression ADS isn't updated as frequently as ADSB; according to [1] the controller "conducted a single interrogation (one shot) of the aircraft's automatic dependant surveillance (ADS) system", and "Automatic Dependant Surveillance was a system dependant on a datalink and a series of reporting `contracts' (a rate of reporting) established between an aircraft and a ground system". My understanding of ADSB is that it is automatically updated every 5 seconds[2], hence "single interrogations" aren't required. http://www.gisdevelopment.net/technology/gps/ma04082c.htm describes ADS and the three sub-types C, B and C Quote: Reference: [1] http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=388 [2] URL:http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/projects/adsb/adsbtracks.asp -- Brian May Back to top Mil80C Guest Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "Mil80C" <deanoyourknickers4598 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote Quote: "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote in message news:sa4acibxnhb.fsf (AT) snoopy (DOT) microcomaustralia.com.au... Hello, Is ADS related to ADSB? I get the impression ADS isn't updated as frequently as ADSB; according to [1] the controller "conducted a single interrogation (one shot) of the aircraft's automatic dependant surveillance (ADS) system", and "Automatic Dependant Surveillance was a system dependant on a datalink and a series of reporting `contracts' (a rate of reporting) established between an aircraft and a ground system". My understanding of ADSB is that it is automatically updated every 5 seconds[2], hence "single interrogations" aren't required. http://www.gisdevelopment.net/technology/gps/ma04082c.htm describes ADS and the three sub-types C, B and C Serious finger trouble, A, B and C :) Reference: [1] http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=388 [2] URL:http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/projects/adsb/adsbtracks.asp -- Brian May Back to top plazbot Guest Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB Whilst not touched on in this thread, I cannot see any reason why any person would not elect to have ADSB in their aircraft. I liken it to helmets on push bikes. Natural Selection. -- plazbot ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ] - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly - Back to top wilga938 Guest Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB plazbot... go to the ADS-B thread in AGACF... and you will see the reasons why. And natural selection is the evolutionary development for a need. ADS-B is a bureaucratic techo-wanko, to be foisted onto sectors of aviation that dont have the need. Read and heed. -- wilga938 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ] - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly - Back to top gizmo Guest Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB Brian May wrote: Quote: Hello, Is ADS related to ADSB? I get the impression ADS isn't updated as frequently as ADSB; according to [1] the controller "conducted a single interrogation (one shot) of the aircraft's automatic dependant surveillance (ADS) system", and "Automatic Dependant Surveillance was a system dependant on a datalink and a series of reporting `contracts' (a rate of reporting) established between an aircraft and a ground system". My understanding of ADSB is that it is automatically updated every 5 seconds[2], hence "single interrogations" aren't required. Reference: [1] http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=388 [2] http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/projects/adsb/adsbtracks.asp There is a good read here regarding ADS-B @ http://www.ozipilotsonline.com.au/forums/showthread.php?s=c7a5cfac90a86c99d1aebcaaf6a192d2&threadid=76567&perpage=15&pagenumber=3 Back to top SR20GOER Guest Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote Quote: "SR20GOER" == SR20GOER <sr20goerDONTSPAM (AT) ozipilotsonline (DOT) com.au writes: ...but you shouldn't be looking at the TCAS display in order to manage separation - see the article in the latest Aviation Safety. Apparently there have been incidents of pilots misunderstanding the TCAS display, using the wrong awareness as grounds for disobeying ATC instructions, hence putting the aircraft in direct conflict with the other traffic they were meant to be avoiding. Very true however in the CTAF environment we are generally outside ATC so it is see and be seen avoidance with no assistance from ATC. Quote: I would see the benefits of ADSB over TCAS as: * ATC assistance (navigation, radio frequencies, etc) if you get lost or need emergency assistance. Sure GPS display would also help, but I suspect this will cost extra money, and use more power. ie. cost(TCAS) + cost(GPS display) vs cost(ADSB-Out) (I am assuming you have radio). Coverage see below * Similarly, ATC may be the only safe option in certain emergencies, eg. VFR pilot caught in IMC, loss of full control of aircraft, etc. Problem is their intervention will not help fly the plane as the leans kill you - heard one in bad Wx near Leongatha the other day and the ATC advice was "call me back when you have the wings level and no rate of climb or descent" Quote: * alternatively, a pilot is lost, goes to use his portable GPS unit, batteries die... Coverage see below * presumably ADSB messages will be recorded, and presumably this means if your SAR expires and you are outside radar converge it might make it quicker to locate you based on the last ADSB location received. It probably help accident investigators with there investigations too. Coverage see below * aircraft flying in controlled airspace without clearance can be identified. This could be good (ATC can contact you easier), or bad (e.g. if CASA was to obtain ADSB data as evidence and use it against you). I think good because re-education is needed in such cases. * possibility of flight following being expanded outside radar areas, depending on controller work load, I guess. Coverage see below Quote: However, see URL:http://www.airservicesaustralia.com.au/pilotcentre/projects/adsb/faq.asp#controllers>, I am not sure what "expand surveillance across the entire continent" means. It would seem to imply some areas don't have ATC services, no matter what altitude - is this correct? Sums up my comments above "Coverage see below". The ADS-B coverage will not be anything special. As an indication, have a look on the PCA at the coverage at 5000 and 10000'. As being pushed by ASA at present, ADS-B is to save money on MSSR replacement and will be geared to the height the heavy metal flies at. For most of the possibilities mentioned above, you are likely to be outside ADS-B and ATC coverage. In the ultimate, still no substitute for a Flight Note or SARTIME. I think the long term benefits of ADS-B will catch up with lower level GA as cockpit technology becomes cheaper. However, do NOT expect ASA to spend money providing ADS-B in the Outback areas where it is a VFR Class G lifesaver. Brian SR20 Back to top Coop Guest Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Decline of GA (Was: ADS vs ADSB) SR20GOER wrote: Quote: "plazbot" <plazbot (AT) REMOVETHISOziPilotsOnline (DOT) com.au> wrote in message news:plazbot.1vsd7s (AT) OziPilotsOnline (DOT) com.au... Whilst not touched on in this thread, I cannot see any reason why any person would not elect to have ADSB in their aircraft. I liken it to helmets on push bikes. Natural Selection. Plaz I'm halfway between you and Wilga on this. <snipped> Quote: I thoroughly support the ADS-B concept and it's long term place in the technology offering to GA. Affordability is however a key factor. GA in Oz is in decline and compulsory ADS-B may force another rash of aircraft sales in the Aviation Trader. Brian Brian, I'm with you on the concern re decline of GA- and the hastening effect of compulsory high tech gizmo's. I noticed an article in the July-August 2005 Flight Safety Australia titled "Is GA in Fatal Decline?" It appears to be trying to give the impression that it isn't, but the figures, in my opinion, merely confirm the decline. For example, they comment that Commercial GA activity (hours)grew by a modest 3% in the period 1993-2002. Now I'm no economist, but it seems to me that overall growth of 3% (total- not annual) is hardly a figure to get excited about. Inflation alone would have swamped that. The figures for recreational and private business flying show a decline of 2% over the same period. Sure, there has been some shuffling of hours from VH to Ultralight, and some movement from fixed to rotary, but the overall figures seem to confirm what you are saying. I wonder what the equivalent figures would show for NZ or USA? And to what extent is the confusion and cost engendered by our regulation of our flying environment contributing to this? Regards Coop Back to top SR20GOER Guest Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Decline of GA (Was: ADS vs ADSB) "Coop" <vhbdq (AT) chariotnose (DOT) netwheel.au> wrote Quote: SR20GOER wrote: snipped I thoroughly support the ADS-B concept and it's long term place in the technology offering to GA. Affordability is however a key factor. GA in Oz is in decline and compulsory ADS-B may force another rash of aircraft sales in the Aviation Trader. Brian Brian, I'm with you on the concern re decline of GA- and the hastening effect of compulsory high tech gizmo's. I noticed an article in the July-August 2005 Flight Safety Australia titled "Is GA in Fatal Decline?" It appears to be trying to give the impression that it isn't, but the figures, in my opinion, merely confirm the decline. For example, they comment that Commercial GA activity (hours)grew by a modest 3% in the period 1993-2002. Now I'm no economist, but it seems to me that overall growth of 3% (total- not annual) is hardly a figure to get excited about. Inflation alone would have swamped that. The figures for recreational and private business flying show a decline of 2% over the same period. Sure, there has been some shuffling of hours from VH to Ultralight, and some movement from fixed to rotary, but the overall figures seem to confirm what you are saying. I wonder what the equivalent figures would show for NZ or USA? And to what extent is the confusion and cost engendered by our regulation of our flying environment contributing to this? Regards Coop Coop BTRE Report 111 via their website is a good read. Because the AUF/RAA is self-regulating they continue to grow. The 4 Jabis and 1 Allegro at TDN are always busy while the Cessna props are silent. If you look at the data the GA hours are from memory being propped up by heli mustering more than anything else. CASA alone are not to blame as other "hobbies" have emerged, disposable income is all used up, and so on. Yet the RAA aircraft and flying keep growing so there is some $ there. The AVID/ASIC is another killer of motivation - how many irregular pilots will spend the time and $? The Aviation Trader has lots for sale and slow moving. An ageing fleet with many watching CASA and its rumblings of higher maintenance needs. Insurance will go up again after the USA hurricanes - as mine did after 9/11 despite the fact that I have never crashed into the Grollo Tower. What's the incentive to buy new aircraft - training is down, flying schools are sick of the increasing CASA paper war, and CASA is now talking of substantial fee increases (not rationalisation) to replace the AVGAS levy. Ron Bertram's visit to NZ showed a healthy and thriving GA economy. Unfortunately the Oz situation is a CASA/ASA mindset based around the heavy metal and unique airspace, GA regulation administered by a CASA that does not even have any requirement to nurture GA in the mission statement it got from Anderson. Add in compulsory TSO GPS / ADS-B (and the GPS won't be subsidised) and many aircraft will fly only in Class G - which will win the day for the heavies and make everyone happy. In 10 years we will have a lack of skilled pilots and be importing towel heads to fly us around in the things beginning with 7!! Brian Back to top veritas Guest Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: Decline of GA (Was: ADS vs ADSB) SR20GOER wrote: Quote: "Coop" <vhbdq (AT) chariotnose (DOT) netwheel.au> wrote in message news:4333E3D4.6010003 (AT) chariotnose (DOT) netwheel.au... SR20GOER wrote: snipped I thoroughly support the ADS-B concept and it's long term place in the technology offering to GA. Affordability is however a key factor. GA in Oz is in decline and compulsory ADS-B may force another rash of aircraft sales in the Aviation Trader. Brian Brian, I'm with you on the concern re decline of GA- and the hastening effect of compulsory high tech gizmo's. I noticed an article in the July-August 2005 Flight Safety Australia titled "Is GA in Fatal Decline?" It appears to be trying to give the impression that it isn't, but the figures, in my opinion, merely confirm the decline. For example, they comment that Commercial GA activity (hours)grew by a modest 3% in the period 1993-2002. Now I'm no economist, but it seems to me that overall growth of 3% (total- not annual) is hardly a figure to get excited about. Inflation alone would have swamped that. The figures for recreational and private business flying show a decline of 2% over the same period. Sure, there has been some shuffling of hours from VH to Ultralight, and some movement from fixed to rotary, but the overall figures seem to confirm what you are saying. I wonder what the equivalent figures would show for NZ or USA? And to what extent is the confusion and cost engendered by our regulation of our flying environment contributing to this? Regards Coop Coop BTRE Report 111 via their website is a good read. Because the AUF/RAA is self-regulating they continue to grow. The 4 Jabis and 1 Allegro at TDN are always busy while the Cessna props are silent. If you look at the data the GA hours are from memory being propped up by heli mustering more than anything else. CASA alone are not to blame as other "hobbies" have emerged, disposable income is all used up, and so on. Yet the RAA aircraft and flying keep growing so there is some $ there. The AVID/ASIC is another killer of motivation - how many irregular pilots will spend the time and $? The Aviation Trader has lots for sale and slow moving. An ageing fleet with many watching CASA and its rumblings of higher maintenance needs. Insurance will go up again after the USA hurricanes - as mine did after 9/11 despite the fact that I have never crashed into the Grollo Tower. What's the incentive to buy new aircraft - training is down, flying schools are sick of the increasing CASA paper war, and CASA is now talking of substantial fee increases (not rationalisation) to replace the AVGAS levy. Ron Bertram's visit to NZ showed a healthy and thriving GA economy. Unfortunately the Oz situation is a CASA/ASA mindset based around the heavy metal and unique airspace, GA regulation administered by a CASA that does not even have any requirement to nurture GA in the mission statement it got from Anderson. Add in compulsory TSO GPS / ADS-B (and the GPS won't be subsidised) and many aircraft will fly only in Class G - which will win the day for the heavies and make everyone happy. In 10 years we will have a lack of skilled pilots and be importing towel heads to fly us around in the things beginning with 7!! Brian Sad - but only too true! Back to top Brian May Guest Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB Quote: "SR20GOER" == SR20GOER <sr20goerDONTSPAM (AT) ozipilotsonline (DOT) com.au> writes: SR20GOER> Problem is their intervention will not help fly the SR20GOER> plane as the leans kill you - heard one in bad Wx near SR20GOER> Leongatha the other day and the ATC advice was "call me SR20GOER> back when you have the wings level and no rate of climb SR20GOER> or descent" Presumable this would mean: * The aircraft has been radar detected. (not required with ADSB?) * The aircraft is not in danger of coming into premature contact with the ground, ie. no mountains nearby ready to move into the aircrafts way. Mountains have a habit of moving about in IMC... * The aircraft is not about to collide with any other aircraft that ATC knows about. Yes, I think this is a major help for any pilot stuck in these conditions. I am assuming the aircraft was radar identified. In any case presumable ADSB would mean that ATC can help without needing this extra step. I get the impression that something as simple as pushing the "ident" button in these conditions could distract a pilot long enough to lose control of the aircraft. In fact just talking to ATC can be a distraction, according to some references I have. Oh well. There always will be some situations that technology can't help. I think we should try to improve the situations were it is feasible, and I think ADSB may help. Obviously the ATC cannot help the pilot any more though, without the controller materialising next to the pilot and taking over the controls. Unfortunately I don't think this is currently possible though due to low staffing issues they are currently having. I also remembered that a advantage of ADSB over TCAS is, correct me if I am wrong, I believe ADSB will transmit position, altitude, speed, and direction. I think this additional data would allow for better and more efficient management of conflicts. TCAS on the other hand, only receives position and altitude (altitude might be incorrect and is used by TCAS without verification). It also incorporates conflict management data that I suspect ADSB doesn't have (so in a 2 aircraft conflict, only one aircraft is told to descend and only one aircraft is told to climb). -- Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> Back to top Stealth Pilot Guest Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:55:37 +1000, Brian May <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote: Quote: * Altitude verification - I believe ADSB, based on GPS, unlike TCAS won't be confused if the barometer is wrong. I seem to remember incidents exist where two aircraft are separated, but TCAS puts them understand the time calculations behind gps and the shape of the triangles involved. gps altitude is a wonder that it even works at all. usually in flight the altitude will be hundreds of feet out. Stealth Pilot Back to top SR20GOER Guest Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "Brian May" <bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au> wrote Quote: "SR20GOER" == SR20GOER <sr20goerDONTSPAM (AT) ozipilotsonline (DOT) com.au writes: SR20GOER> Problem is their intervention will not help fly the SR20GOER> plane as the leans kill you - heard one in bad Wx near SR20GOER> Leongatha the other day and the ATC advice was "call me SR20GOER> back when you have the wings level and no rate of climb SR20GOER> or descent" Presumable this would mean: snip> * The aircraft is not about to collide with any other aircraft that ATC knows about. Brian May Brian M An important comment and I should have mentioned earlier that there may well arise the time when you REFUSE an ATC request/direction. In the ultimate, the PIC is the sole judge of fact for staying alive. Stay alive first, fight the bureaucrats paperwar later. In non-radar ATC (tower) environment I have been vectored on collision course with a no radio aircraft joining on my right (worse with right of way) and I ended the debate very quickly with an appropriate comment to that effect. Bankstown/Moorabbin with their contra circuits are another high risk if someone overshoots the turn onto final (remember the Bankstown accident not so long ago). ATC are to me someone to obey with your eyes and mind open but take collision or cloud avoidance (if VFR, remembering they cannot see the cloud) without waiting divine approval. (I remember another day coming back over ML on the OWENS-ML-TDN track when the ML DEP controller asked several times for a description of our operations as he would not believe we were NOT in cloud). Brian SR20 Back to top AA Guest Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "Stealth Pilot" <tailwind (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote Quote: On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:55:37 +1000, Brian May [email]bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au[/email]> wrote: * Altitude verification - I believe ADSB, based on GPS, unlike TCAS won't be confused if the barometer is wrong. I seem to remember incidents exist where two aircraft are separated, but TCAS puts them understand the time calculations behind gps and the shape of the triangles involved. gps altitude is a wonder that it even works at all. usually in flight the altitude will be hundreds of feet out. Stealth Pilot TSOd GPS have barometric sensing and so are not hundreds of feet out. AA Back to top RT Guest Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: ADS vs ADSB "AA" <someone (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote Quote: "Stealth Pilot" <tailwind (AT) iinet (DOT) net.au> wrote in message news:b8tfj11mrgg6oa0dr3sjaiobg9b28dn2gr (AT) 4ax (DOT) com... On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:55:37 +1000, Brian May [email]bam (AT) snoopy (DOT) apana.org.au[/email]> wrote: * Altitude verification - I believe ADSB, based on GPS, unlike TCAS won't be confused if the barometer is wrong. I seem to remember incidents exist where two aircraft are separated, but TCAS puts them understand the time calculations behind gps and the shape of the triangles involved. gps altitude is a wonder that it even works at all. usually in flight the altitude will be hundreds of feet out. Stealth Pilot TSOd GPS have barometric sensing and so are not hundreds of feet out. AA See http://www.asy.faa.gov/safety_products/GPSSafetyAdv.htm They use 'a barometric input', NOT barometric sensing, according to the above URL. So do you connect it to the gaffer-tape covered static ports or use your pressurised cabin? In the both cases the error could be 10s of thousands of feet, not just hundreds :-) Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Planes, gliders and flying in Australia All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2   Jump to: Select a forum Aviation----------------alt.aviationAviation safety EnhancementPlanes, gliders and flying in AustraliaAviation et pilotage (Français)rec.aviationAviation (Aerobatics)Hot air, gas balloons and airshipsHang-gliding, paragliding, foot-launched flightAircraft Design & BuildingInstrument Flight RulesAviation (Classifieds)Military AircraftNaval AviationAviation (Miscellaneous Topics)Owning AirplanesAviators (General Discussions)Aviation related productsAircraft RestorationHelicopters and rotary wing aircraftsFlight SimulationSailplanesAviation (Students)Light aircraftFlying related activities in the UK Airports----------------alt.airportsEdinburgh Airport Glasgow Airport Humberside Airport Luton Airport Aberdeen Airport Glasgow Prestwick Airport  You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2006 phpBB Group SEO toolkit © 2004-2006 webmedic.