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'Vejita' S. Cousin
Guest
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 Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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I'm a private pilot based in Seattle but from MD. I'll be in the
Columbia, MD area the first week of August and wanted to fly family to
Ocean City. Just read the NOTAMs on the ADIZ and AOPA's interactive
website demo.
I think I understand the main points but still have a few questions:
1) Plan to depart FME to OXB. If I want to enter baltimore class B and
am already talking to potomac approach, I can just request to enter the
class B as normal?
2) Return trip: OXB to FME. I file a flight ADIZ flight plan. But
looking at OXB there's a freq for Patuxent approach AND clearance
delivery. Which should I call, or does it not matter? Do I
a - file flight plan, take off as normal, call Patuxent Approach
and active flight plan prior to entering ADIZ
b - file flight plan, contact clearance delivery prior to
departure to active ADIZ flight plan
c - file flight plan, contact patuxent approach prior to depature
(not necessary outside of ADIZ right, plus I still need/should to talk to
CTAF to depature)
3) Not planning to land at Bay Bridge but can someone explain how I
would? Is Bay Bridge inside or outside the ADIZ. When can you change
transponder codes? Neither the Notam nor AOPA's demo made any sense?!?
I can not really see any way this increases security, but then I quess
that's not really the point huh  It actually doesn't look as bad as I
thought it would be, unless I decide to change course and go sight seeing.
Thanks in advance.
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Mark Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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Although the ADIZ is not THAT hard, it does take some time and
experience in using it. I would imagine if you are renting, you would
not get a check out without being familiar with the ADIZ. The ADIZ
generally mirrors the Class B airspace "footprint", with some
additional extensions to the south of DC.
FME is in the midst of both the Class B and the ADIZ. You will need
to file a flight plan with FSS and get a squawk code BEFORE departing
FME. AS I fly from HEF, I am not up on the exact procedures for FME,
but you will need a flight plan and a squawk code BEFORE you get
airborne. Anything less will get you busted. Additionally, you will
need to file to some eastern way point (VOR, intersection etc...) in
order to exit the ADIZ. I know them going west, not east so I can not
help you there.
As for your return trip, scenario "B" is most correct. PAX may not be
able to coordinate a handoff to Potomac Approach so you might have to
work that yourself, while remaining clear of the ADIZ until you are
"cleared on course".
You are correct - what does this add to security - nothing except
permitting the Homeland Security folks to say they are doing
something.
Good luck on your flights.
Mark
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John T
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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"'Vejita' S. Cousin" <scousin@u.washington.edu> wrote
| Quote: |
1) Plan to depart FME to OXB. If I want to enter baltimore class B
and am already talking to potomac approach, I can just request to
enter the class B as normal?
|
Not quite. :)
Just to reiterate what you already know, the rules of the ADIZ are:
1. Flight plan on file.
2. Discrete transponder code.
3. Two-way communications with ATC.
4. (New) Functional transponder.
FME is in the ADIZ. Therefore, you should activate your ADIZ flight plan
with Potomac TRACON *before* departing. If you take off before getting a
discrete beacon code, bad things are likely to happen. Remember that the
FAA is slapping significant suspensions on first time offenders of the ADIZ.
The process isn't difficult, but does take extra time. Call FSS (Leesburg
is the one most familiar with ADIZ procedures) and file an "ADIZ flight
plan". This is similar to but not the same as an IFR flight plan. (They
actually enter it into the ATC computers as an IFR plan with "ADIZ" in the
remarks section. You will *not* be under IFR on an ADIZ flight plan,
though.)
Before departing the airport, contact PCT either on the phone or by RCO
(this is where a cell phone in the cockpit can be handy). Give them your
tail number and request "activate ADIZ flight plan". Remember that this is
*not* a clearance. You do not need to be cleared into the ADIZ. You simply
activate your ADIZ flight plan. They will respond with a beacon code and a
departure frequency.
Set your transponder with the beacon code, make sure your transponder is in
Mode C, and take off. Once airborne and departing the traffic pattern,
contact PCT on the departure frequency given to you by the clearance
delivery controller. Check in with your tail number and wait for ATC to
respond. Once they respond, two way communications have been established
and you are now VFR in the ADIZ.
You may request Class B transition at this point, if you wish.
Once you are clear of the ADIZ, expect ATC to inform you to squawk VFR and
approve your frequency change. They may offer flight following if their
workload permits.
If your transponder fails to function at any time you're in the ADIZ, you
are to exit the ADIZ by the most direct route.
| Quote: | 2) Return trip: OXB to FME. I file a flight ADIZ flight plan. But
looking at OXB there's a freq for Patuxent approach AND clearance
delivery. Which should I call, or does it not matter? Do I
a - file flight plan, take off as normal, call Patuxent Approach
and active flight plan prior to entering ADIZ
b - file flight plan, contact clearance delivery prior to
departure to active ADIZ flight plan
c - file flight plan, contact patuxent approach prior to depature
(not necessary outside of ADIZ right, plus I still need/should to
talk to CTAF to depature)
|
I don't know if Patuxent will be able to open your ADIZ flight plan since
they're not actually part of the ADIZ. However, clearance delivery is the
frequency to use to negotiate flight following from the ground or to ask
them about opening the ADIZ flight plan.
Taking off from OXB can be done pure VFR, if you'd like. When you're about
10 miles or so from the ADIZ, call up Potomac Approach and ask them to
activate your ADIZ flight plan.
| Quote: | 3) Not planning to land at Bay Bridge but can someone explain how I
would? Is Bay Bridge inside or outside the ADIZ. When can you change
transponder codes? Neither the Notam nor AOPA's demo made any
sense?!?
|
Bay Bridge is inside the ADIZ, but they have a special beacon code that can
be used for traffic going directly to the airport or departing the airport
directly out of the ADIZ.
| Quote: | I can not really see any way this increases security, but then I quess
that's not really the point huh
|
Welcome to my world. We all know it does nothing but give the Powers
That Be the opportunity to say "See? We're Doing Something."
| Quote: | It actually doesn't look as bad
as I thought it would be, unless I decide to change course and go
sight seeing.
|
If you have any significant experience dealing with ATC for things like
flight following or IFR, then it really isn't much of a deal at all.
Just make sure you have that beacon code and don't reset it to VFR until you
are on the ground. :)
--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________
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'Vejita' S. Cousin
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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In article <34883d8b.0407251056.185a98f1 (AT) posting (DOT) google.com>,
| Quote: | FME is in the midst of both the Class B and the ADIZ. You will need
to file a flight plan with FSS and get a squawk code BEFORE departing
FME. AS I fly from HEF, I am not up on the exact procedures for FME,
but you will need a flight plan and a squawk code BEFORE you get
airborne. Anything less will get you busted. Additionally, you will
need to file to some eastern way point (VOR, intersection etc...) in
order to exit the ADIZ. I know them going west, not east so I can not
help you there.
|
Thanks, I didn't know that. I plan to file FME direct OXB, so I'm
hoping that will count as an 'eastern way point.' As a read more about
it, the ADIZ seems like a 'huge class B' zone that you need to deal with
while still on the ground.
But the handoffs from ADIZ, to class B, to CTAF/Tower are a little
confusing. But I think I understand it now. Just treat the ADIZ as a
'class B airspace zone covering MD/DC/VA' and everything (mostly) makes
sense :)
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'Vejita' S. Cousin
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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In article <76dd3607f9d305d79aea9f2d9bd18cb8 (AT) news (DOT) bubbanews.com>,
| Quote: | 2) Return trip: OXB to FME.
I don't know if Patuxent will be able to open your ADIZ flight plan since
they're not actually part of the ADIZ. However, clearance delivery is the
frequency to use to negotiate flight following from the ground or to ask
them about opening the ADIZ flight plan.
|
Ok, thanks. It's all starting to make sense. Basically I need to
treat the ADIZ as a gaint 'super class B' bubble that covers MD/DC/VA.
With it's own controllers and clearance system.
| Quote: | If you have any significant experience dealing with ATC for things like
flight following or IFR, then it really isn't much of a deal at all.
|
I fly from Clas D KBFI (boeing field) which is right next to/under
Class B KSEA and next to class D KRNT. We've got class C airspace to the
north and south and it's pretty busy here. I'm not concerned about
talking on the radio (thank goodness). Just want to make sure that there
are no problems.
I don't want to cause any problems for myelf, ATC or GA on the whole
"today a private pilot in a small plane, similar to the one that crashed
into the office building after being stolen in Fl, voliated the DC ADIZ.
Military jets were dispatched and congress was empty. One controller was
quoted as saying 1min to impact, etc. etc."
Sort of like Reagan's funeral but I don't have the political power to
cover/save my a&& :)
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aaronw
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 06:37:46 +0000 (UTC), scousin@u.washington.edu
('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm a private pilot based in Seattle but from MD. I'll be in the
Columbia, MD area the first week of August and wanted to fly family to
Ocean City. Just read the NOTAMs on the ADIZ and AOPA's interactive
website demo.
I think I understand the main points but still have a few questions:
1) Plan to depart FME to OXB. If I want to enter baltimore class B and
am already talking to potomac approach, I can just request to enter the
class B as normal?
|
On the ground, you must file a DC ADIZ flight plan. This flight plan
can ONLY be filed to an intersection/VOR that is a 'fringe' point.
Unfortunately, there's not a list, but I know departing to the west
they'll take ESN. Then call potomac for a squawk and departure freq.
Take off as normal (without forgetting to put in the squawk). Once
you leave the vicinity of the airport, change to the given departure
freq and check in:
potomac approach, n12345 off fort meade, level 1000
You'll probably get:
n12345, potomac approach, proceed on course, remain clear of the
bravo).
IF the freq is SO congested that you can't check in immediately, it's
*probably* best to keep on motoring AWAY from DC and keep trying.
According to PCT (potomac consolidated tracon), NORAD really doesn't
like people pointing AT DC, but is much less concerned about people
pointing away.
Then motor along. It's PROBABLY best to wait until approach calls you
back and says:
n12345, potomac approach, clear of the adiz, squawk 1200, freq change
approved:
12345 squawking vfr, good day.
You CAN say '12345 clear of the adiz, request freq change', but unless
you have GPS or know for sure, don't bother. It's the controller's
radar that is the defining point, not the GPS anyways...
You can try to ask potomac approach for a bravo clearance,but if this
is a "VFR weekend", it will be extremely unlikely that you will get
that, as the departure frequency you will most probably get (126.75)
will be a madhouse.
| Quote: | 2) Return trip: OXB to FME. I file a flight ADIZ flight plan. But
looking at OXB there's a freq for Patuxent approach AND clearance
delivery. Which should I call, or does it not matter? Do I
a - file flight plan, take off as normal, call Patuxent Approach
and active flight plan prior to entering ADIZ
b - file flight plan, contact clearance delivery prior to
departure to active ADIZ flight plan
c - file flight plan, contact patuxent approach prior to depature
(not necessary outside of ADIZ right, plus I still need/should to talk to
CTAF to depature)
|
What you should do (assuming you are VFR)
1) On the ground at OXB, call FSS, say "I'd like to file a DC ADIZ
flight plan". Give them ESN as an entry point, I think they'll take
that. If they don't take that, you can do any other point they give
you on the east side, like SWAN or GOLDA Remember, you DO NOT have to
overfly that point, nor do you really need to be anywhere near it.
The only reason you need to give them an entry point is so that your
flight plan goes to the right sector at Potomac, which are:
Chesapeake (Baltimore)
Mount Vernon (National/Andrews)
Shenandoah (Dulles)
James River (Richmond)
Anything on that east side will go to Chesapeake, so that's fine.
Then, depart VFR.
If you want to get flight following from OXB back towards FME, go
ahead and call up patuxent approach when you are settled.
You can say something like :'pax approach, N12345 at x000 5 W of OXB,
looking for flight following back to FME, ADIZ on file'
Pax approach MAY co-ordinate with potomac approach to get you that
squawk code that was generated by your ADIZ flight plan, they may not.
It depends how busy they are. You never really need to 'activate' it,
per se.
If they don't co-ordinate, they'll dump you. They REALLY should give
you the next freq at least, but they may not. If they do co-ordinate,
you'll probably just get a handoff, which is like any other radar
handoff.
If they dump you, call potomac:
potomac approach, n12345 5E of ESN, 5000, ADIZ on file to FME
12345, potomac, squawk 4431
4431, 12345.
And then proceed on in remaining clear of the bravo. Once again, you
CAN ask for a bravo, but I know that 126.75 almost for sure will not
give it.
Go ahead and call the airport in sight about miles out so that you can
set up for pattern entry, etc:
approach, n12345, tipton in sight
12345, potomac, freq change approved, keep the code
keep the code, 345, good day
This part IS important. DO NOT SQUAWK 1200 inside the ADIZ, that will
get you a LOT of attention.
Tips on landing at FME (I fly out of there)
There is a non-certified AWOS on 123.925
When coming in from the E, overfly the dragstrip directly above and on
the same heading as it, that points you directly at the field. This
is also a good point to call inbound on the CTAF.
| Quote: |
3) Not planning to land at Bay Bridge but can someone explain how I
would? Is Bay Bridge inside or outside the ADIZ. When can you change
transponder codes? Neither the Notam nor AOPA's demo made any sense?!?
|
Bay Bridge has special procedures IFF (if and only if)
you are:
1) Taking off from bay bridge and departing to the east to exit the
lateral limits of the class bravo.
2) Entering the lateral limits of the class bravo and landing at Bay
Bridge.
If neither one of these applies, don't worry. Basically, don't fly
too far from a direct route to the airport, and there's a special
squawk code (which I forget, but I'm sure it's on AOPA)
Don't let the specifics get you down...
Hopefully, you won't be like the people who I overheard 2 weekends
ago:
12345, approach
12345, go ahead
12345, what are you doing out in that area? adiz flight plans aren't
really for loitering in the adiz
uh, well, we're really on a discovery flight just checking things out.
well, you're really not allowed to just loiter around.. NORAD doesn't
like it much
uh, okay.. we'll be done in a few minutes
hopefully we haven't put off your prospective pilot too much...
let me know if you have any more questions, I am unfortunately too
familar with the specifics...
aw
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John T
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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aaronw wrote:
| Quote: |
12345, what are you doing out in that area? adiz flight plans aren't
really for loitering in the adiz
|
My experience has been that this isn't a problem as long as everybody knows
ahead of time what your intentions are. I've been checked out on "new"
planes, taken friends on aerial tours and done other "loitering" with no
problem. It does help greatly if you tell ATC beforehand what you'll be
doing and none of this activity was anywhere near the FRZ.
Maybe Shenandoah is just more amenable to such activities than those
wascally Chesapeake controllers. ("My controller is better than your
controller.") :)
--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________
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Andrew Gideon
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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John T wrote:
| Quote: | Before departing the airport, contact PCT either on the phone or by RCO
(this is where a cell phone in the cockpit can be handy). Give them your
tail number and request "activate ADIZ flight plan". Remember that this
is
not a clearance. You do not need to be cleared into the ADIZ. You simply
activate your ADIZ flight plan. They will respond with a beacon code and
a departure frequency.
|
Out of curiosity: do they provide anything like the void time I'm used to
getting for an IFR clearance out of an untowered field? Is there any
unstated time window?
- Andrew
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Malcolm Teas
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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scousin@u.washington.edu ('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote in message news:<cdvkfq$48h$1 (AT) gnus01 (DOT) u.washington.edu>...
| Quote: | I'm a private pilot based in Seattle but from MD. I'll be in the
Columbia, MD area the first week of August and wanted to fly family to
Ocean City. Just read the NOTAMs on the ADIZ and AOPA's interactive
website demo.
|
Others covered your specific questions. I just wanted to reiterate:
1) Talk with PCT (Potomac Congested Tracon). Get a squalk before
taking off, or when safely outside the ADIZ. Maintain contact with
them unless they change to you CTAF.
2) Do NOT squalk 1200 in the ADIZ. This is how you lose your license.
Keep your squalk till you're on the ground. No use for VFR squalk in
the ADIZ at all.
3) Being in the ADIZ is not Bravo clearance. And, you don't need
clearance to be in the ADIZ, you need to squalk and talk. Being in
the ADIZ isn't flight following either (although the controllers try
to do that whenever they can).
If you lose transponder, exit the ADIZ the most direct way. If you
lose radio, well, that's less defined. But I'd guess the same
principle applies now. I just carry a charged up hand-held radio
myself.
| Quote: | I can not really see any way this increases security, but then I quess
that's not really the point huh It actually doesn't look as bad as I
thought it would be, unless I decide to change course and go sight seeing.
|
No, if they wanted to increase security, they'd close National. This
is window dressing mostly, although it does help to filter the targets
on the scope somewhat.
-Malcolm Teas
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aaronw
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:34 am Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:28:20 -0400, Andrew Gideon <ag7337 (AT) gideon (DOT) org>
wrote:
| Quote: | John T wrote:
Before departing the airport, contact PCT either on the phone or by RCO
(this is where a cell phone in the cockpit can be handy). Give them your
tail number and request "activate ADIZ flight plan". Remember that this
is
not a clearance. You do not need to be cleared into the ADIZ. You simply
activate your ADIZ flight plan. They will respond with a beacon code and
a departure frequency.
Out of curiosity: do they provide anything like the void time I'm used to
getting for an IFR clearance out of an untowered field? Is there any
unstated time window?
|
No, there is no void time. They tend to be pretty easy going about
times. Just make sure it's close. I believe the strip shows up at
'wherever' it's going about a half hour before your estimated time,
and gets expunged an hour after that or so. But I'm not sure, and on
more than one occasion, PCT has said 'We are not the flight plan
police'. There have been a bunch of occasions where pilots inbound
have called up, said they filed, PCT couldn't find them, so they
generated a code for them and let them in. If you filed it, but they
couldn't find it, they (correctly) take that as their problem, and let
you in. Of course, with the recent mess about the kentucky governor's
plane they may not be as loose with this.
aw
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John T
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: ADIZ [flying in MD] |
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Andrew Gideon wrote:
| Quote: |
Out of curiosity: do they provide anything like the void time I'm
used to getting for an IFR clearance out of an untowered field? Is
there any unstated time window?
|
As Aaron said, there isn't a void time. A typical conversation for one of
my flights would be:
"Potomac Clearance, N2871R would like to activate my ADIZ flight plan."
"N2871R, Potomac, squawk 1455, departure frequency 126.1."
"N2871R, squawk 1455, departure frequency 126.1."
That's it. Assuming I'm first in line, I rev up and go. :)
I have some audio of ADIZ traffic on my site, but not actually activating
the ADIZ flight plan.
--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________
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