AirTalk.org Aviation discussions newsgroups   Archives   FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in  ADF Required Goto page 1, 2  Next          AirTalk.org Forum Index -> Instrument Flight Rules View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message Ted Timmons Guest Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: ADF Required When an approach specifies ADF REQUIRED (as in Rochester, NY KROC ILS RWY 4 or VOR RWY 4) is there any legal way to fly the approach without an ADF? It appears to me that the only reason for the ADF requirement is for the missed approach. Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? Back to top john smith Guest Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Ted Timmons wrote: Quote: When an approach specifies ADF REQUIRED (as in Rochester, NY KROC ILS RWY 4 or VOR RWY 4) is there any legal way to fly the approach without an ADF? It appears to me that the only reason for the ADF requirement is for the missed approach. Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? Is there an overlay GPS approach to that runway? Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Ted Timmons wrote: Quote: Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? I fly out of Syracuse, NY, which has an ADF-required ILS approach. During the oral, the DE for my instrument checkride asked me if I could legally fly this approach using a C172 with no ADF. I answered "yes" if the aircraft is equipped with an IFR-certified GPS. That answer was wrong. He told me what you stated above. If you ask ATC for alternate missed approach instructions, you can "legally" fly the approach without an ADF. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Back to top Newps Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Ted Timmons wrote: Quote: When an approach specifies ADF REQUIRED (as in Rochester, NY KROC ILS RWY 4 or VOR RWY 4) is there any legal way to fly the approach without an ADF? It appears to me that the only reason for the ADF requirement is for the missed approach. Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? No reason you can't use a GPS for this approach. Back to top Newps Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Peter R. wrote: Quote: Ted Timmons wrote: Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? I fly out of Syracuse, NY, which has an ADF-required ILS approach. During the oral, the DE for my instrument checkride asked me if I could legally fly this approach using a C172 with no ADF. I answered "yes" if the aircraft is equipped with an IFR-certified GPS. That answer was wrong. He told me what you stated above. If you ask ATC for alternate missed approach instructions, you can "legally" fly the approach without an ADF. I looked at both ILS's for SYR. No reson you can't use the GPS to hold at KIRKI when you go missed. Back to top Craig Prouse Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required In article <MPG.1aa1b48b368c73ef98978d (AT) text-east (DOT) newsfeeds.com>, Peter R. <prgroup3 (AT) twcny (DOT) OMITXrr.com> wrote: Quote: I fly out of Syracuse, NY, which has an ADF-required ILS approach. During the oral, the DE for my instrument checkride asked me if I could legally fly this approach using a C172 with no ADF. I answered "yes" if the aircraft is equipped with an IFR-certified GPS. That answer was wrong. How was your answer wrong? Back to top Peter R. Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 2:26 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Newps wrote: Quote: I looked at both ILS's for SYR. No reson you can't use the GPS to hold at KIRKI when you go missed. Yes, you are right and I am wrong. I just found the reference in the AIM that states that both DME and ADF can be substituted with the GPS. Now that I think of it, I recall the chief CFI at my school mentioned he was going to talk to the DE about GPS substitution, as it appeared the DE did not have his facts entirely correct. Then again, this was about a year ago. -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Back to top Teacherjh Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Quote: I think the clarification from the FAA is recent about DME and ADF substitution. However, note that if this is an ALTERNATE airport, you cannot substitute. << More precisely, the substitution cannot be considered when choosing it as an alternate. No ADF, can't use it as an alternate. Hoever, once in the air, should you actually require an alternate airport, you are not required to use the one in the flight plan, and you may use one notated ADF required by substituting GPS just as if it were your intended airport and approach. Requirements for filing differ from those for using. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) Back to top Andrew Sarangan Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required "Ted Timmons" <Glider_Guider (AT) Yahoo (DOT) com> wrote Quote: When an approach specifies ADF REQUIRED (as in Rochester, NY KROC ILS RWY 4 or VOR RWY 4) is there any legal way to fly the approach without an ADF? It appears to me that the only reason for the ADF requirement is for the missed approach. Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? I am not sure how you decided that the ADF is required only for the missed approach. The AVN NDB serves as the IAF and the holding fix. It is required in order to fly the feeder route from FAULT intersection. AVN is also the fix from which the MSA and the 10-NM approach area are determined. Unless I am looking at the wrong approach chart, it seems to me that you need the ADF in order to fly this approach. Back to top Sammy@nospam.biz Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required "Peter R." wrote: He told me what you stated above. If you ask ATC for alternate missed Quote: approach instructions, you can "legally" fly the approach without an ADF. Your examiner is wrong. ATC cannot waive Part 97. But, you can substitute an IFR-certified GPS for the ADF because Flight Standards has issued a national policy letter permitting that. And, most IAPs do not have a non-radar alternate missed approach proceddure. It's either the published missed or radar vectors. Back to top Sammy@nospam.biz Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required "Peter R." wrote: Quote: Now that I think of it, I recall the chief CFI at my school mentioned he was going to talk to the DE about GPS substitution, as it appeared the DE did not have his facts entirely correct. Then again, this was about a year ago. The FAA authorized that substitution about 4 years ago. Back to top Tom Cummings Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Quote: AOPA has the link, I can't find it right now. Is the AOPA link you are referring to? http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/air_traffic/gps_in_lieu.html Some more info is at http://www.avionicswest.com/myviewpoint/gpsuse.htm Tom Back to top C J Campbell Guest Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Actually, failure of the ADF was one the reasons I installed a Garmin 430 in my plane. The GPS can substitute for an ADF or DME. Back to top Ted Timmons Guest Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required If I understood your response correctly, the approach may not be flown without having either an ADF or an IFR-certified GPS. It seems to me like very poor planning to design approaches such as the two I previously mentioned (Rochester, NY KROC ILS RWY 4 or VOR RWY 4). A pilot could have a day (1,000 foot ceiling) with an extremely low probability of needing to execute the missed and not be able to "legally" fly the approach if the ADF was inop. Has anyone tried to get an approach modified, e.g., get a missed approach procedure changed to eliminate the ADF requirement? <Sammy (AT) nospam (DOT) biz> wrote Quote: ATC cannot waive Part 97. But, you can substitute an IFR-certified GPS for the ADF because Flight Standards has issued a national policy letter permitting that. And, most IAPs do not have a non-radar alternate missed approach proceddure. It's either the published missed or radar vectors. Back to top Scott Guest Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: ADF Required Quote: or VOR RWY 4) is there any legal way to fly the approach without an ADF? It appears to me that the only reason for the ADF requirement is for the missed approach. Only with an approach approved GPS that has the paperwork for installation in the plane. (In which case, you can use it for that approach, but your alternate still has to be filed such that you can use non-GPS methods.) Quote: Can the approach be flown leagally by requesting alternate missed approach instructions that don't require and ADF? Now that's a great question. I suppose ATC can override anything really. But then, what do you do in case of lost comm? You can't fly the published missed. If you're an AOPA member, call up there help line. They know or can find out just about anything about this stuff. 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