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Ron Rosenfeld
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 Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: ADF in Europe |
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Are ADF's required outside of the United States?
I had a demo flight in a new Mooney Ovation2GX the other day. Quite a nice
airplane, by the way. Afterwards, looking at the price list, I noted an
ADF add-on for the Garmin G1000 panel as $15,500 (it's a Becker ADF, for
those who are interested; supposed to be accurate to 3° at some specified
signal strength).
Since the technology seems to be becoming outdated in the US, I wondered if
it was required elsewhere.
Thanks.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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Ron Rosenfeld
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:07:54 +0100, Peter <nospam (AT) nospam9876 (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Yes, the *carriage* of an ADF is mandatory for European airways flight
- usually this means Class A which in many places extends all the way
down.
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Thank you for that information. And I'll guess that the ferry pilot was
probably flying an N-registered a/c, so I'm guessing the regulation applies
to all.
No, I would not want a bolt-on box under a glass panel. However, if I
should ever be able to afford something like that, my local avionics shop
said he could install it for a lot less. They just happen to be a Becker
dealer, too.
The background:
My wife is from the Azores, and it is possible we may go there for extended
periods (e.g. several months). If we do, from what I have read, I would be
able to fly IFR (and night) in my N-registered a/c with my FAA license;
where I would not have those privileges in a Portugese registered a/c
unless I took some onerous tests.
The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough
range to make that flight. Now I just have to figure out how to pay for it
 .
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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Thomas Borchert
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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Ron,
| Quote: | Are ADF's required outside of the United States?
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In Germany, ADFs are required for IFR training aircraft. This is
different from the UK, as Peter posted.
DMEs are required for IFR flying. No substitution by GPS. Yes, I
know...
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
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Ron Rosenfeld
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 14:09:10 +0200, Thomas Borchert
<borchert_thomas (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | Ron,
Are ADF's required outside of the United States?
In Germany, ADFs are required for IFR training aircraft. This is
different from the UK, as Peter posted.
DMEs are required for IFR flying. No substitution by GPS. Yes, I
know...
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So do the Diamond a/c with the G1000 being sold in Europe have both DME and
ADF as part of the package? For the Mooney Ovation2GX, that's $9,900 +
$15,500 USD for something that's of marginal utility outside the country.
Of course, that's the factory installed price. It can be quite a bit
cheaper to have those units installed after-market.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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Thomas Borchert
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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Peter,
| Quote: | Maybe in Germany but not everywhere.
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Which is pretty much what I said, isn't it?
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
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chalfin@uthscsa.edu
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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I'v flown a couple of Austrian-registered Diamond Stars here in the US.
They had ADF and DME. My Star was built in Austria and has DME, but I
didn't have them install the ADF (although the ground plane and
attachment pad for the ADF antenna are there).
Steve
N432SC
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gwengler
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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| Quote: | Even in the USA, no-DME restricts the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.
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How so?
Gerd
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gwengler
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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| Quote: | The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough range to make that flight.
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How much fuel would you have in total including the long range tanks?
Gerd
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On 8/25/2005 11:37, gwengler wrote:
| Quote: | Even in the USA, no-DME restricts the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.
How so?
Gerd
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If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
Keep in mind that I did not cite all the rules/regs concerning this
issue, just the part that illustrates this point.
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On 8/25/2005 14:33, Peter wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMWinfirst (DOT) Com> wrote
If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
Thank you for saving me looking this up However, I get the
impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches :)
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Well, as a student, I have to worry about all the rules equally ;-)
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 9:52 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On 8/25/2005 14:33, Peter wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMWinfirst (DOT) Com> wrote
If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
Thank you for saving me looking this up However, I get the
impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches :)
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Also note that this is a consideration for the selection of the
airport as an alternate. Once you get to the airport, you land
any which way you want (using GPS, etc.).
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA
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Mark Hansen
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On 8/25/2005 14:49, Peter wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMWinfirst (DOT) Com> wrote
Well, as a student, I have to worry about all the rules equally ;-)
You can imagine the fun that a European pilot has at the FAA IR oral
Or indeed the FAA PPL oral.
The examiner of course knows that no matter how many hours the pilot
has, he won't know anything about roughly 40% of the material unless
he has been reading the books over and over and over.
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I was coming to that conclusion after listening to this thread today.
I guess I'm lucky that I can't afford to fly outside of the U.S. ;-)
--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA
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Newps
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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Peter wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Hansen <meh (AT) NOSPAMWinfirst (DOT) Com> wrote
If you're flying a GPS approach at your primary airport, the alternate
airport must have a non-GPS IAP. If the only non-GPS IAP requires DME,
then you need to have DME operational in the aircraft.
Thank you for saving me looking this up However, I get the
impression that Americans worry about this detail about as much as
Europeans worry about carrying an ADF when doing NDB approaches
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If your GPS is WAAS capable then the requirement goes away in the US.
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Ron Rosenfeld
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:32 am Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On 25 Aug 2005 11:39:37 -0700, "gwengler" <gwengler (AT) parkprop (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | The new Mooney Ovation2GX, with long-range tanks, has more than enough range to make that flight.
How much fuel would you have in total including the long range tanks?
Gerd
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With the long range tanks, the total fuel capacity is 130 gallons. That
gives a maximum range (with reserves) of 2400NM. Although I could make it
non-stop from my home base, I would plan a fuel stop at CYYT (St. John's,
NF), from which LPL is "only" about 1250 NM.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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Ron Rosenfeld
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:39 am Post subject: Re: ADF in Europe |
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On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:44:01 +0100, Peter <nospam (AT) nospam9876 (DOT) com> wrote:
| Quote: | A DME is IMHO a lot more important than an ADF - again in the event of
a GPS failure, or a RAIM failure. Even in the USA, no-DME restricts
the choice of a destination/alternate, IIRC.
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I don't believe there is any restriction for destinations, so long as the
location of the DME fix is in the GPS receiver's database.
For alternates there is some kind of requirement for a non-GPS approach if
one is using a TSO129 box. But the TSO146 (WAAS) boxes have no requirement
for a non-GPS approach at alternates. My experience has been with a
CNX80/GNS480 so I'm not really up on the non-WAAS stuff.
| Quote: |
Americans must be really taking the piss reading all this crap... but
in Europe, one spends most of the time without any radar service (even
when IFR, in the UK) so it's different to the USA.
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I don't mind non-radar at all. But it sure seems as if European GA has a
lot more restrictions than we do.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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