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Michael
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Cub Driver <look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil> wrote

Quote:

jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.

Yes, shearling is sheep or lambskin, and the B-3, B-6, D-1, M-444 and
M-445 were made out of sheepskin. The A-2 and M422/G-1 were not. The
A-2 was horse, goat or cow and the M-422 was goat.

~Michael

Michael
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6e2677.1139062 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...

Quote:

On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:

By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

Quote:

Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.

I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in

$1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
bullshit story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
enough for their delicate constitutions.

By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!

A Pontiac Grand Prix, so no, no Porsche. Though I do I have some
$1000 jackets. Sorry.

Quote:

Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.

Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

I'd don't expect them to know or care how accurate it is. It's only
important to me.

~Michael

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael)
Date: 9/22/03 6:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.

I'd don't expect them to know or care how accurate it is. It's only
important to me.

~Michael

Get the US Wings jacket. 100% authentic. They make then for the Air force.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: Cub Driver [email]look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil[/email]
Date: 9/22/03 2:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.

Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.

Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.

Sounds good to me.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Anybody remember the designation of those big sheepskin lined winter flying
suites we wore? I wish I still had mine. (sigh)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Corey C. Jordan
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

On 22 Sep 2003 06:31:07 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:

Quote:

Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6e2677.1139062 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:

Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

That's a good point Michael, the labels in my jackets (three years old now)
say Genuine Cowhide Leather. It appears that they have switched to Nappa
somewhere along the way. Probably to keep cost down. Nappa is commonly used in
fashion leathers and is quite comfortable and reasonably durable.

Isn't Nappa full-grain lambskin or sheepskin? U.S. Wings offers quite a few
lambskin G-1s and A-2s. Is there a difference beyond semantics?

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

Andrew Chaplin
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

"Paul J. Adam" <news (AT) jrwlynch (DOT) demon.co.uk> wrote

Quote:

In message <20030919221310.07564.00001013 (AT) mb-m17 (DOT) aol.com>, ArtKramr
[email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email]> writes
Officers do not put their hands in their pockets

Do they get Other Ranks to it for them? Smile

I don't know about UK forces but, in the CF, having your hands in your
pockets is referred to as "wearing American gloves", and in the bad old
days was a way to earn about 30 push-ups, or an all-expenses paid trip
around the parade square at the double with your rifle over your head.

In the really bad old days, officers had swagger sticks, ashplants and
riding crops that reduced their desire to put their hands in their
pockets.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Michael
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote in message news:<20030922110949.07635.00001154 (AT) mb-m17 (DOT) aol.com>...

Quote:

The B-6 was the intermediate weight sheepskin jacket and the B-3 and
AN-J-4 were the heavy weight sheepskin jackets. What clothing (and
how many layers) did you usually wear on missions? From the photos
I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).

~Michael

Michael
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6f17b3.3707015 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...

Quote:

On 22 Sep 2003 06:31:07 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:

[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6e2677.1139062 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:

Well, according to their website, their standard A-2 and G-1 are made
out of "nappa leather" meaning sheep or lambskin meant for use in
glove making. Did you request jackets made out of cow?

That's a good point Michael, the labels in my jackets (three years old now)
say Genuine Cowhide Leather. It appears that they have switched to Nappa
somewhere along the way. Probably to keep cost down. Nappa is commonly used in
fashion leathers and is quite comfortable and reasonably durable.

Isn't Nappa full-grain lambskin or sheepskin? U.S. Wings offers quite a few
lambskin G-1s and A-2s. Is there a difference beyond semantics?

It's not going to be as strong or take the abuse of the leathers that
were specified by the military for their jackets.

~Michael

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:41 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

For winter flying we were issued elecric suits, heavy sheepskin jackets and bib
pants and quileted long johns as well as 4 pairs of gloves

Quote:

From the photos
I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).

~Michael

Very often? I am not sure what you mean by very often?

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Michael
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote in message news:<20030922214135.29224.00000011 (AT) mb-m13 (DOT) aol.com>...

Quote:

Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael)
Date: 9/22/03 5:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
The B-6 was the intermediate weight sheepskin jacket and the B-3 and
AN-J-4 were the heavy weight sheepskin jackets. What clothing (and
how many layers) did you usually wear on missions?

For winter flying we were issued elecric suits, heavy sheepskin jackets and bib
pants and quileted long johns as well as 4 pairs of gloves

From the photos
I've seen, it doesn't look like the B-26s crews wore a ton of clothes
or were issued electric flight suits or sheepskin (very often).

~Michael

Very often? I am not sure what you mean by very often?

Sorry for the confusion. I'm assuming since there is little
photographic evidence of sheepskin jackets being used by B-26 crews,
that they weren't something the entire group of aircrew was outfitted
with. That's what I meant by not "very often".

So how did it work? Was every flyer in your group issued a heavy
sheepskin jacket? And would they have gotten it stateside before they
shipped out or when they arrived at their assigned group? It seems
like an A-2 or B-10 jacket or B-11 parka over a flight suit and wool
uniform was the most common outfit worn by B-26 crews, even during the
winter.

~Michael

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael)
Date: 9/23/03 7:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time

So how did it work? Was every flyer in your group issued a heavy
sheepskin jacket? And would they have gotten it stateside before they
shipped out or when they arrived at their assigned group? It seems
like an A-2 or B-10 jacket or B-11 parka over a flight suit and wool
uniform was the most common outfit worn by B-26 crews, even during the
winter.

~Michael

Every flier in the group was issued sheepskin pants and jacket, quilted long
Johns, electric suit and 4 pairs of gloves. They were issued to us in England.
The clothing you describe would only be worn in summer. And we were never
issued a parka of any kind. It would have been useless. Imagine a chute harness
over a parka for example. During the bitter record setting winter of 1944 (
Battle of the Bulge) we flew in the sheepskins and after the missions we kept
them on and slept in them to keep from freezing. The electric suits were of
limited use since if it was really cold on the ground you couldn't bail out in
an elctric suit. You would freeze to death. Also the electric suits had "hot
spots" in them. After a while they would burn under the armpits and behind the
knees and elbows and they had to be turned off until those areas cooled. And by
the time they cooled the rest of you was shivering. So you would fly missions
in an electric suit turning it on and off and on and off all the way out and
back.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Michael
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote in message news:<20030923110515.14483.00000069 (AT) mb-m28 (DOT) aol.com>...

Quote:

Every flier in the group was issued sheepskin pants and jacket, quilted long
Johns, electric suit and 4 pairs of gloves. They were issued to us in England.

Thanks for the info. It's interesting (at least to me) to hear about
stuff like this. I've heard of guys getting all new gear before they
ship out, and guys getting equiped when they reach their theatre. I
guess there was no set system of who would get what, when or where.

Quote:

The clothing you describe would only be worn in summer. And we were never
issued a parka of any kind. It would have been useless. Imagine a chute harness over a parka for example.

I've seen photos and the harness fits over them. I'm sure they would
have been a pain, but they did issue B-7, B-9 & B-11 parkas to aircrew
for flight use. The B-11 got lots of use later in the war, and was
issued to everyone from glider pilots to heavy bomber crews.

Quote:

During the bitter record setting winter of 1944 (
Battle of the Bulge) we flew in the sheepskins and after the missions we kept
them on and slept in them to keep from freezing.

I can only imagine how harsh the conditions were. Did you ever get
warm? I had a great uncle in the 101st during the Battle of the
Bulge. Unfortunately he died before I was born so I never got to hear
of his experiences.

Quote:

The electric suits were of
limited use since if it was really cold on the ground you couldn't bail out in
an elctric suit. You would freeze to death. Also the electric suits had "hot
spots" in them. After a while they would burn under the armpits and behind the
knees and elbows and they had to be turned off until those areas cooled. And by
the time they cooled the rest of you was shivering. So you would fly missions
in an electric suit turning it on and off and on and off all the way out and
back.

Do you know what type you were issued? Your comments echo exactly
those I've heard and read about the one piece F-1 blue bunny suits.
Sometimes they wouldn't work at all and other times they'd burn you.
They were better left off and just used as another layer of clothing.
The two piece F-3 suit supposedly fixed those problems of hot spots,
breaking wires, etc. and was worn under the B-10/A-9 combo to protect
you if the electric suit failed or you bailed out. Seems like heavy
bomber crews just about always wore an F-3 suit from late summer '44
onward and they were used extensively during the Korean War too by
Invader and B-29 crews.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this stuff with me. I really
appreciate it. If I could bother you with one other question which
I've always wonder about (but nothing is ever written)... what was
life like between missions? i.e. What responsibilities would aircrew
have between missions? What did they do to fill up the day when they
weren't flying?

Thanks,

~Michael

ArtKramr
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:36 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

My pleasure. Ask away. Oh and I forgot to mention the big fat heavy sheepskin
flying boots that we wore all that winter.I was never so cold in my life before
or since.

If I could bother you with one other question which

Quote:

I've always wonder about (but nothing is ever written)... what was
life like between missions? i.e. What responsibilities would aircrew
have between missions? What did they do to fill up the day when they
weren't flying?

Thanks,

~Michael

Michael go to my website and read a story called " THE RAIN AT PONTOISE" to get
an idea what it was like when we weren't flying.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Michael
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

[email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote in message news:<20030923223620.28304.00000049 (AT) mb-m27 (DOT) aol.com>...

Quote:

Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael)
Date: 9/23/03 7:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
Thank you for taking the time to discuss this stuff with me. I really
appreciate it.

My pleasure. Ask away. Oh and I forgot to mention the big fat heavy sheepskin
flying boots that we wore all that winter.

Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?

Quote:

Michael go to my website and read a story called " THE RAIN AT
PONTOISE" to get
an idea what it was like when we weren't flying.

So on non-flying days (rain or shine) aircrews were pretty much left
to find whatever to occupy their time?

Thanks,

~Michael

Cub Driver
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law

Quote:

Yeah, the A-6s. Did you wear just the boots themselves, or were they
big enough to be worn over a pair of shoes?

Ah, that takes me back! In basic training I was issued a pair of
overshoes (galoshes, if you prefer) so large that when I walked they
never left the ground.

In the interest of the Company's rank in the climactic Speed March, we
wore the galoshes all day, every day.

Mine never left the ground, or more accurately: mud.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

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