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Joe Curry
Guest
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 Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:35:21 -0700 (PDT), GLAGAZ <spazgaz (AT) hotmail (DOT) com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "We fundamentally disagree with the findings of the
commission. I think we have demonstrated clear evidence the two
airports serve distinct and separate markets and that they will never
compete, regardless of separate ownership."
|
This from The Herald:
"One aviation analyst told The Herald: "If there was separate
ownership, I think you would certainly see Edinburgh trying to steal
long-haul traffic from Glasgow. I'd imagine that would happen as soon
as they know what assets are going to go."
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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Jim Mason
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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In article <a8459627-75b1-45be-bb65-
c60f50d1eb1f (AT) a12g2000yqm (DOT) googlegroups.com>, spazgaz (AT) hotmail (DOT) com says...
| Quote: | I don't buy the crap put into the public eye by so called business
experts who claim to speak on behalf of everyone.
|
Eh - I think they are speaking on behalf of BAA saying they believe there
shouldn't be divestment as it will be detrimental in the long term to the
business community and for the travelling public. In the very limited
market we have in Scotland I would have to agree with comment such as this
===================
Ron Hewitt, chief executive of Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce, said he was
dismayed at the report.
He said: "As far as I can see the Competition Commission have completely
misread the situation in Scotland, which is a distinct market from England.
"Glasgow and Edinburgh airports really serve separate markets and all the
research bears this out.
"The concern of business is that the proposals in the preliminary findings
completely pull the rug out from under the feet of some of our most
important assets for international trade.
"BAA's investment of over £500 million, £40 million in Edinburgh alone this
year, cannot be guaranteed from an enforced sale."
=======================
and this
=======================
Gordon Dewar of BAA Scotland said: "We remain of the view that Glasgow and
Edinburgh airports serve separate markets and that competition between the
two is highly unlikely, regardless of ownership.
"This is a view shared by many of Scotland's leading business organisations
and is based on detailed and robust evidence. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:44:02 -0700 (PDT), "(Billy Gray)"
<billy.gray6 (AT) virgin (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | That is why BAA must go. They don't want the airports to compete with
each other.
Bye bye BAA...please.
Gaz
That is correct Gaz , Vernon Murphy said as much 15 years ago !
|
And anyone who remotely suggested it in this newsgroup was mobbed and
lambasted.. how times have changed.
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:17:46 -0000, "Clive"
<clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Well if no growth of air services is ever likely to happen in Scotland we
won't need any new building works at our airports.
|
Seems Edinburgh is missing some infrastructure that other airports
consider vital to expansion, wouldn't you agree?
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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Clive
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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"Jim Mason" <jim&linda (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:MPG.242dd0e239427d7e9898e8 (AT) news (DOT) individual.net...
| Quote: | "BAA's investment of over £500 million, £40 million in Edinburgh alone this
year, cannot be guaranteed from an enforced sale."
|
No need anyway if there is to be no future growth. Our market is done
growing, you implied.
| Quote: | Gordon Dewar of BAA Scotland said: "We remain of the view that Glasgow and
Edinburgh airports serve separate markets and that competition between the
two is highly unlikely, regardless of ownership.
|
So no one in the west central belt wants to be able to fly to FRA, MUC, MXP,
etc and no one in the east central belt wants to fly to Florida, western
Canada, Dubai, etc?
Actually this isn't true at all. I know this for sure because I know of a
number of Edinburgh resident who have flown GLA-DXB and also of residents of
3 north Glasgow suburbs who fly EDI-MAD regularly. The catchments areas
overlap almost completely and the only reason it looks like people won't
cross "the divide" is because the majority of flights are domestic and there
is no need to get to the other airport for most of these routes.
C |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:54:41 -0000, "Clive"
<clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | For some reason some people here don't seem to think a new found
ability to operate freely as independent businesses in the marketplace, to
lower aviation charges, improve customer experience and to attract more
airlines and routes is desireable. I've still never heard quite why that
would be.
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Most are your back-slappers Clive... a gang meet?
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:59:30 -0000, "Clive"
<clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote:
| Quote: | Perhaps I should have said I don't see Ferrovial having the appetite to
appeal.
|
Shouldn't you add 'you hope'?
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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GLAGAZ
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Mar 20, 4:12 pm, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <a8459627-75b1-45be-bb65-
c60f50d1e...@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, spaz...@hotmail.com says...
I don't buy the crap put into the public eye by so called business
experts who claim to speak on behalf of everyone.
Eh - I think they are speaking on behalf of BAA saying they believe there
shouldn't be divestment as it will be detrimental in the long term to the
business community and for the travelling public. In the very limited
market we have in Scotland I would have to agree with comment such as this
|
Why do they speak on behalf of BAA? Do they not realise how bad GLA is
in terms of non-stop European connections? Perhaps if they were to
speak with a potential new investor they would change their minds.
| Quote: | "BAA's investment of over £500 million, £40 million in Edinburgh alone this
year, cannot be guaranteed from an enforced sale."
|
Why invest at GLA? Pax numbers have been declining for ages now. No
effort to increase it.
AC - Gone
AA - Gone
CO - Decreased service
NW - Gone
UA - Gone
Z4 - Bust
XL - Bust
AF - Gone
LH - Gone
Charter market - Declining
Domestic market - Declining
No major lowco presence
No flights to Eastern Europe
| Quote: | Gordon Dewar of BAA Scotland said: "We remain of the view that Glasgow and
Edinburgh airports serve separate markets and that competition between the
two is highly unlikely, regardless of ownership.
"This is a view shared by many of Scotland's leading business organisations
and is based on detailed and robust evidence.
|
Prove it? ;)
Gaz |
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Jim Mason
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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In article <4lj7s4dgbspd89evg2d83uu2rttu399qgq (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>, jcurry99
@googlemail.com says...
| Quote: | On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 10:31:07 -0000, Jim Mason <jim&linda (AT) gmail (DOT) com
wrote:
EK will regret their error of choice once a regular MIddle East flight
is secured for EDI...
|
I don't think EK see it as an error in the slightest - they are delighted
with their exclusive choice of GLA. So much so they started a flight from
NCL that hasn't dented the GLA figures in the slightest. You are making a
massive assumption that another middle-East flight would go to EDI - it
seems much more likely to be secured for GLA or NCL given the massive
success already at these airports with premium direct middle-east and Asia
flights. Though I do agree with you that infrastructure is a problem in EDI
attracting such long-haul flights as far as maintenance facilites go. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:42:43 -0000, Jim Mason <jim&linda (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
wrote:
| Quote: | That is why BAA must go. They don't want the airports to compete with
each other. They are quite happy with the status quo.
So are the Scottish business community. I wonder why that is?
|
Ask those who are forced west if the want to bypass Euro gateways
to Asia and beyond?
Ask the holidaymaker who wants a direct Edinburgh flight to Florida?
Ask the holidaymaker who wants more frequent Edinburgh flights to
Tenerife?
Ask the holidaymaker who wants direct Edinburgh charter flights to the
Caribbean?
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
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Mister Niceguy
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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"Clive" <clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote in
news:72id15Fq55b1U1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net:
| Quote: | "Mister Niceguy" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:Xns9BD4C5A205CB1niceguyonzetnet (AT) 194 (DOT) 247.47.119...
"Clive" <clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote in
Indeed. But 'new GLA' will be free and able to mop up PIK's pax
business if the new management fancy that idea.
The old management didn't think it a good idea.
I know. Either that or their hands were tied for fear of upsetting
monopoly regulators!
Funnily enough for about 10 years EDI's management didn't think having
a Ryanair base was a good idea. That suddenly changed when BAA knew
one of it's airports was going to have to be sold and they knew which
one they'd like to keep. Mr Dewar knew this too as his removal van
flitted east along the M8, and no mistake. Their shock back in the
autumn at being told EDI must go told a thousand tales. That had them
flailing around as if they had been bitten by rattlesnake - not the
fact that they were being told to sell one but the fact that they were
being told to sell EDI at that time. They have won a concession
(rightly so as there were no grounds to dictate which of the two must
go) and GLA will be sold after all.
|
Or neither will. Or both will. Why the conspiracy theory?
| Quote: | Yes, and MXP, JFK, MAD, DUS, MUC, FRA, etc. But in neither scenario
does it mean that an airline will quit one airport and move to the
other, although I'd take a straight swap of everything between the
two right now if that suits.
Is that perhaps clouding your judgement?
How do you mean? Do you think the only way GLA or EDI could land a new
service is by getting an existing carrier to switch from the other?
|
No, I was just following your comment. But in the current economic
climate yes, I think that is likely.
| Quote: | Nice new terms and a can-do attitude will
make all those opportunities feasible from both our airports
Both airports can now. But airlines probably only want to fly from
one.
So there are distinct markets, ie there wouldn't be a strong enough
market to support any kind of frequency and capacity from EDI to
Florida, Canada (other than 2 weekly seasonal split loads to the
Toronto area), a Gulf area hub, the Caribbean (other than cruise
charters), Mexico, Pakistan or even Iceland and from GLA to the FRA
hub, BRU, MAD, MUC, etc? No, I think it's probably somewhere in the
middle and a great deal of incentive would go a long way for both
airports to attract some of the services we all think are no-brainers.
Particularly easy at the low cost end because all those operators need
is "a shed" and low enough charges. Lower charges in general and
better facilities would also cause the traditional and long haul
carriers to sit up and take notice. Y'know, I don't think Scotland is
as dead as a nation on the world stage as some people seem to think.
Certainly nothing that a bit of new thinking couldn't mend.
|
Of course it's somewhere in the middle. That's why the CC's decision is
so contestable.
| Quote: | Because there is no evidence that that would be the outcome.
There isn't? The CC, the CAA and all of the airlines think it would.
Logically it stands to reason too. I'd still like to know exactly why
some people are pulling against change. EDI won't lose out with GLA
being sold and GLA can only get better so what seems to be the
problem?
|
That's not quite what the CC is saying. The CC says that GLA and EDI
should compete for routes. No way does that suggest that there will be
any new routes for either that wouldn't have come along anyway.
The airlines' main interest is lower charges as they'd play EDI and GLA
against each other. Again this does not imply they'd put on any new
routes. Just changes how they decide whether to fly from EDI or GLA. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:36:09 -0000, Jim Mason <jim&linda (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Because there would be very little new routes or custom merely shifts from
one airport or the other. We have a VERY limited market in Scotland and new
custom is not going to magically appear.
|
Strange how a new 'busiest' airport appeared? Edinburgh can handle
Scotland's needs, one airport for Scotland is everyone's dream....
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
|
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Clive
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
|
|
"Mister Niceguy" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:Xns9BD4C5A205CB1niceguyonzetnet (AT) 194 (DOT) 247.47.119...
| Quote: | "Clive" <clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote in
Indeed. But 'new GLA' will be free and able to mop up PIK's pax
business if the new management fancy that idea.
The old management didn't think it a good idea.
|
I know. Either that or their hands were tied for fear of upsetting monopoly
regulators!
Funnily enough for about 10 years EDI's management didn't think having a
Ryanair base was a good idea. That suddenly changed when BAA knew one of
it's airports was going to have to be sold and they knew which one they'd
like to keep. Mr Dewar knew this too as his removal van flitted east along
the M8, and no mistake. Their shock back in the autumn at being told EDI
must go told a thousand tales. That had them flailing around as if they had
been bitten by rattlesnake - not the fact that they were being told to sell
one but the fact that they were being told to sell EDI at that time. They
have won a concession (rightly so as there were no grounds to dictate which
of the two must go) and GLA will be sold after all.
| Quote: |
Yes, and MXP, JFK, MAD, DUS, MUC, FRA, etc. But in neither scenario
does it mean that an airline will quit one airport and move to the
other, although I'd take a straight swap of everything between the two
right now if that suits.
Is that perhaps clouding your judgement?
|
How do you mean? Do you think the only way GLA or EDI could land a new
service is by getting an existing carrier to switch from the other?
| Quote: |
Nice new terms and a can-do attitude will
make all those opportunities feasible from both our airports
Both airports can now. But airlines probably only want to fly from one.
|
So there are distinct markets, ie there wouldn't be a strong enough market
to support any kind of frequency and capacity from EDI to Florida, Canada
(other than 2 weekly seasonal split loads to the Toronto area), a Gulf area
hub, the Caribbean (other than cruise charters), Mexico, Pakistan or even
Iceland and from GLA to the FRA hub, BRU, MAD, MUC, etc? No, I think it's
probably somewhere in the middle and a great deal of incentive would go a
long way for both airports to attract some of the services we all think are
no-brainers. Particularly easy at the low cost end because all those
operators need is "a shed" and low enough charges. Lower charges in general
and better facilities would also cause the traditional and long haul
carriers to sit up and take notice. Y'know, I don't think Scotland is as
dead as a nation on the world stage as some people seem to think. Certainly
nothing that a bit of new thinking couldn't mend.
| Quote: |
Because there is no evidence that that would be the outcome.
|
There isn't? The CC, the CAA and all of the airlines think it would.
Logically it stands to reason too. I'd still like to know exactly why some
people are pulling against change. EDI won't lose out with GLA being sold
and GLA can only get better so what seems to be the problem?
C |
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Mister Niceguy
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
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|
"Clive" <clivebraham (AT) nospamorange (DOT) net> wrote in
news:72heg5Fpuhj0U1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net:
| Quote: |
"Mister Niceguy" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:Xns9BD45D7C14965niceguyonzetnet (AT) 194 (DOT) 247.47.119...
Damian <damianlearyo (AT) yahoo (DOT) co.uk> wrote in
news:2fcd7afb-59ba-4f3d-a1d4-
721ccb226ed9 (AT) q9g2000yqc (DOT) googlegroups.com:
On 19 Mar, 22:48, william.bar...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
On Mar 19, 1:36 pm, "You Really Couldn't Make It Up..."
blim...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
On Mar 19, 8:16 pm, Joe Curry <jcurr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
"Oh dear, what a short memory Bill, it wasn't so long ago that
BAA's
performance at Glasgow was lauded day and daily in aaug. 'Team
Glasgow' becoming the new catchphrase..."
"Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway."
"Any disgruntled BAA staff who wish to let me know about BAA's
policy of promoting GLA to the detriment of EDI please email me
in confidence.
I am compiling a dossier of BAA's mismanagement and have already
accumulated some really damming evidence that I will present to
the Scottish parliament.
I do not wish to hear about work conditions or rates of pay or
any trivial tittle-tattle, just the facts about BAA's bias
against
EDI."
Joe,I think you'll find from previous posts that I've never been a
fan
of BAA/Ferrovial or whatever.My memory is better than you give it
credit for.My gripe is purely based on the fact that we will now
have another two years of indecision at both GLA and EDI which will
not benefit either.I personally would prefer BAA to give up on GLA
and concentrate on EDI as it has been doing in the past couple of
years.I happen to think both airports will benefit under different
owners and therefore in direct and fair competition,without any
suggestion of politika or favouritism etc.
It's just a shame that we may have to wait up to two years for it
to finally happen.
Bill- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
That's the nature of the beast, Bill ... while I respectfully differ
with you on your view of the consequences of BAA's ownership of the
Scottish airports I can certainly understand your frustration at the
consequences of the CC dirtying their hands over the whole business.
I think the very least which BAA, and indeed the travelling public,
is entitled to is the irefutable evidence that the current
arrangement has worked against the interests of the consumer ...
what are they afraid of?
I think this demonstrates how finely balanced the CC's decision was.
The decision wasn't clear-cut. The CC had to decide whether EDI and
GLA operate in different markets or whether they entertain the same
passenger "catchment". They opted for the latter.
Their decision was nothing to do with how well BAA has been managing
GLA vis-a-vis PIK and various other arguments we read in these forums
as to why a change would be welcome. It's purely about competition
between EDI and GLA.
Indeed. But 'new GLA' will be free and able to mop up PIK's pax
business if the new management fancy that idea.
|
The old management didn't think it a good idea.
| Quote: | Make no mistake. *IF* the CC is correct then the two airports, under
different ownership, will compete for routes currently offered at
only one of those airports (like DXB).
Yes, and MXP, JFK, MAD, DUS, MUC, FRA, etc. But in neither scenario
does it mean that an airline will quit one airport and move to the
other, although I'd take a straight swap of everything between the two
right now if that suits.
|
Is that perhaps clouding your judgement?
| Quote: | Nice new terms and a can-do attitude will
make all those opportunities feasible from both our airports
|
Both airports can now. But airlines probably only want to fly from one.
| Quote: | - unless
we are claiming that the market has already reached saturation point
and that there is never any growth to come at any point in the future.
In that case we should all just pack up now - and the crazy arguement
about possibly less money being forthcoming for future building
investment under two different owners is null and void.
Anyone who disagrees with that as a
desirable outcome is missing the point of the CC's basis for their
decision.
Indeed. Actually it's never been about BAA being bad a some people
think. They are not bad but the CC thinks they are too comfortable in
Scotland and that with free competition two big airports will be
highly incentivised to out do each other which will result in all of
the benefits to Scotland and its people. For some reason some people
here don't seem to think a new found ability to operate freely as
independent businesses in the marketplace, to lower aviation charges,
improve customer experience and to attract more airlines and routes is
desireable. I've still never heard quite why that would be.
|
Because there is no evidence that that would be the outcome. |
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Joe Curry
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Dawning of a new era |
|
|
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 17:46:17 -0000, Jim Mason <jim&linda (AT) gmail (DOT) com>
wrote:
| Quote: | EK will regret their error of choice once a regular MIddle East flight
is secured for EDI...
I don't think EK see it as an error in the slightest - they are delighted
with their exclusive choice of GLA.
|
We shall see when they face competition...
--
Edinburgh Scotland International Airport
Scotland's busiest/convenient/accessible/profitable airport
The International Gateway with Scotland's busiest runway. |
|
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