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Corey C. Jordan
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 Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:26:34 -0400, Cub Driver <look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil> wrote:
| Quote: |
I may investigate Airborne Leathers! Which is the "Flying Tigers"
jacket, the G-1 or G-2? If I'm going to buy fake, I want the most
authentic fake that money can buy.
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I have photos of the AVG guys taken during February of 1942.
Most are wearing G-1 jackets, with a few A-2s as well. Several of
them managed to get themselves the joint service AN-J-4 jacket
too.
However, the G-1 was the most common jacket among them simply
because so many were former Naval Aviators.
You can purchase a replica silk blood chit and sew it on the back of
a G-1 for the correct AVG look. These are available from U.S. Wings
at http://www.military-jackets.com/patches.asp $23.
So for around $150, you can make your own AVG jacket, or you can
buy one from http://www.flightsuits.com/leather_a2_avg.html for a whopping
$828!! Not only is it expensive, but it's an A-2 jacket, less common in the
AVG than the G-1.
My regards,
Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
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Corey C. Jordan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:45 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: |
Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.
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Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
In case you aren't aware of it, about 98% of new businesses opening
their doors this year are small store-front or garage based establishments.
Indeed, the majority of the Fortune 500 companies began the same way.
Big idea, small budget. Service and quality are what they offer. Dial their
number and talk to a real person concerned to satisfy a customer.
As to their products, virtually every Chinese Jacket sold in this country is
made in one of three factories. Quality is good and the value excellent.
My firm has been buying from China for several years and we have constructed our
own manufacturing facility there. The quality of machined parts is always
improving and they are anxious to compete on their own merit.
My regards,
Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
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Cub Driver
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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| Quote: | The AN-J-4 wasn't standardized until mid '43, and didn't reach flyers
until '44. The AVG guys are wearing USN M-445s.
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Actually, no. I won't go into the niceties of A dash and M dash
jackets, but the AVG pilots were told to bring their own flight
jackets with them. So the army pilots for the most part wore the same
jackets they'd worn in the Army Air Corps--not navy issue.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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Michael
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6a4e06.717328 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
| Quote: | On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.
Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
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No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
A-2, at best.
~Michael
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Michael
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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Cub Driver <look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil> wrote
| Quote: | The AN-J-4 wasn't standardized until mid '43, and didn't reach flyers
until '44. The AVG guys are wearing USN M-445s.
Actually, no.
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No what? The only sheepskin jackets I've seen worn by AVG guys were
Navy jackets. Whether they brought them with them, or the Chinese
bought them for them, I can't saw for sure. But *NO ONE* was wearing
and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.
| Quote: | I won't go into the niceties of A dash and M dash jackets,
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The "A" jackets are AAC/AAF, the "M" jacket are USN. AAC/AAF garments
with the "A" prefix are usually considered to be summer wear and those
with a "B" to be winter wear. Is there something beyond that that I
need enlightened about?
| Quote: | but the AVG pilots were told to bring their own flight
jackets with them. So the army pilots for the most part wore the same
jackets they'd worn in the Army Air Corps--not navy issue.
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I'm well aware that some AAC AVG pilots (and ground crew) brought
along A-2s and other various AAC gear. But the AVG pilots used lots
of Navy flight gear, regardless of which branch they came from.
~Michael
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Corey C. Jordan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On 19 Sep 2003 06:30:55 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: | Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6a4e06.717328 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.
Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
A-2, at best.
~Michael
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Well, I have a mid 1970s issue G-1 and the Chinese copy. I'll be damned
if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.
I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).
My regards,
Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
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ArtKramr
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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| Quote: | Subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law
From: [email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan)
Date: 9/19/03 7:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:
I'll be damned
if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.
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Officers do not put their hands in their pockets
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
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Cub Driver
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, [email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote:
| Quote: | Officers do not put their hands in their pockets
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Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
hands-a-pocket.
Perhaps not fighter pilots! They need their hands to talk, don't they?
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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Cub Driver
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: | and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.
|
Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.
Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
166.
Jim Cross p. 131
Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.
Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
his hands in his pants pocket, Art  wearing a black? jacket with a
moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.
Anyone got this book & care to comment?
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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Marcus Andersson
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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Aerophotos <soaps (AT) ihug (DOT) com.au> wrote
| Quote: | sound like US Navy G- jackets
how ironic
flying over arab land wearing arab clothing
oh the irony
probly made by terrorists to
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If you had read the previous message better, you'd have seen it said
that this particular jacket would *not* be made in the U.S.
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6ba53b.33630515 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
| Quote: | On 19 Sep 2003 06:30:55 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
[email]Widewing (AT) worldwar2aviation (DOT) nospam.com[/email] (Corey C. Jordan) wrote in message news:<3f6a4e06.717328 (AT) netnews (DOT) worldnet.att.net>...
On 18 Sep 2003 06:06:13 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
Looking at their website, I wouldn't buy anything from Airborne
Leather.
Why not, because they're a small store-front business?
No. I've got a narrow definition of what an A-2 (and G-1) is, and
their product doesn't meet that. It's a poor representation of the
A-2, at best.
~Michael
Well, I have a mid 1970s issue G-1 and the Chinese copy. I'll be damned
if I can tell the difference without knowing which is which until I closely
inspect the jacket and find that the Chinese jacket has slash pockets
concealed at the seam, a feature I wish the MIL spec jacket had.
|
By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.
| Quote: | I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).
|
Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
further name name calling.
~Michael
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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Cub Driver <look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil> wrote
| Quote: | On 20 Sep 2003 02:13:10 GMT, [email]artkramr (AT) aol (DOT) com[/email] (ArtKramr) wrote:
Officers do not put their hands in their pockets
Not even pilots? Crikey, I have this image of the cap mashed down, the
Lucky Strike dangling, the elbows sticking out, and the
hands-a-pocket.
|
None of the AAC/AAF flight jackets had hand warmer pockets until the
B-15 at the end of the war. And from what I've heard and read it was
because of the reason Art listed. The powers that be didn't want their
men standing around with their hands in their pockets. Looked sloppy
(and you were ill prepared to salute). Plus if you think about it,
they didn't need them. They need patch pockets to carry stuff (like
cigarettes, lighters, and other survival gear  , and if it was cold
out or they were in the air, they'd have on gloves.
~Michael
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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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Cub Driver <look (AT) my (DOT) sig.fil> wrote
| Quote: | On 19 Sep 2003 08:11:15 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
and AN-J-4 in '42. Whether or not any of the AAC guys brought along
B-3s, I don't know. I've never seen a photo of anyone wearing one.
Nevertheless, of 99 AVG pilots, maybe 40 were from the Army Air Corps,
and almost all of them brought their flight jackets with them.
|
I don't know. I've got a buddy who's way more into the AVG than me,
and a couple years ago when he went through all the photos he had. He
found 13 or 14 AVG pilots wearing A-2s (and maybe a dozen more ground
crew and staff).
| Quote: | Have you got a copy of R T Smith's Tale of a Tiger? Duke Hedman I
believe was an army pilot; he's shown wearing a flight jacket on p.
166.
Jim Cross p. 131
Oley Olson is wearing a shearling jacket p. 180. But he was a squadron
leader and would have qualified for a new jacket! Evidently a bunch of
jackets came in, because there's a portrait of the 3rd Sq ground crew
on p. 178 and most of the men are wearing those shearling-line
jackets. They aren't shown in any of the early photographs.
|
Simple way to identify if it's an USN M-445 or AAC B-3.... The B-3
will have leather reinforcing most of the way down the sleeves, the
M-445 will have diamond shaped reinforcing just at the elbow. The
M-445 will have two button patch pockets on the front, the B-3 will
have one open slash pocket/pouch on the front right. A friend of mine
says he's seen photos of two AVG guys wearing B-3s so some did make it
there.
| Quote: | Here's an interesting one: p. 339. Standing on left is Erik Shilling,
late of this newsgroup, wearing a jacket that is distinctly different
from the others. Perhaps it is brown? It appears to have no fuzzy
collar. Standing beside him is Oley Olson (who may just possibly have
his hands in his pants pocket, Art wearing a black? jacket with a
moulton? collar, which is what most of the others are wearing. Olson
and Shilling are both army pilots. Seated left to right are R T Smith,
army, same jacket as Olson; Jernstedt, marines, a cloth jacket?; then
Prescott, Laughlin, and Reed, all wearing the Olson-type jacket.
Anyone got this book & care to comment?
|
I don't have the book you mention, but I'm familiar with photo you are
refrencing. Shilling has on an A-2 (that is a much lighter brown than
the other jackets), and all the rest of the guys with leather jackets
on are wearing M-422s (they have the fur collar and are so dark of
brown they look black in color photos). Look through your photos,
you'll find the vast majority of AVG pilots (regardless of previous
service) wearing the fur collared USN M-422, though the AAC A-2 was
around. R.T. Smith appears in many photos wearing his M-422.
~Michael
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Corey C. Jordan
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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On 20 Sep 2003 07:31:34 -0700, [email]jitterthug (AT) hotmail (DOT) com[/email] (Michael) wrote:
| Quote: | By Chinese copy, you mean one from Airborne Leather, right? If so,
anyone should be able to tell at a glance that it's not a mil-spec
jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.
|
Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.
| Quote: | I guess that I'm not such a snob that I'll turn my nose at a perfectly
adequate garment that has the look of the original without the outrageous
expense of the high end stuff worn many wannabe geeks (no inference intended).
Yes, the inference was intended bub, and you're alluding that I'm a
snob because I prefer a jacket that actually tries to copy the real
thing from 60 years ago instead of a half assed knock off made with
second rate materials. Your jacket may be adequate in your book, but
not in mine, and we'll leave it at the that before this turns into
further name name calling.
~Michael
|
LOLOLOL
Michael, if I intended to begin name calling, you would know it, believe me.
I was referring to the guys who show up at air shows driving a leased Porsche in
$1,000 leather jackets with patches indicating some former affiliation with a
active duty flying unit. I actually saw some geek with two GTMO patches on
his goatskin G-1. When I asked about his tour there he began a remarkably lame
bullshit story about how dangerous it was down there, blah, blah, blah. It was
obvious to me that he got all of his information from watching a "Few Good Men",
'cause he lacked clue one of reality (I did two tours in GTMO flying SAR). When
taken to task for being a second rate impostor, he was highly indignant, and
refused to apologize for being a liar. That's the type of wannabe I was
referring to, those guys who find the risk associated with day-trading to be
enough for their delicate constitutions.
By the way Michael, what do you drive? LOLOLOL!!! Just teasing!
Seriously, If I want exacting authenticity, I wear my issue G-1 (just replaced
the worn-out sleeve cuffs) with my units patches and velcro name tag.
Now if you prefer the expensive copies, fine, it's your party. However,
be advised that absolutely no one will give a damn how accurate it is.
My regards,
Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
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Cub Driver
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Bomber-jacket leather and our law |
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| Quote: | jacket. The biggest diffence (aside from the slash pockets) is the
cheap lambskin being used in the Chinese version (if a leather jacket
is selling for $99, it's not quality stuff), while a military jacket
is goat or cow.
|
Isn't shearling by definition lambskin? By the spring of 1942, the
majority of AVGs were wearing shearling jackets, as in the 3rd Sq
ground crew photo I mentioned.
| Quote: |
Both of my Airborne Leathers jackets are cowhide, same thickness as
the MIL spec jacket, but the leather is a bit more stiff and it
lacks the brightness of finish of my well-worn issue jacket.
|
Sounds good to me.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9
see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
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